Do You Want to Get Sober or Just Reduce Intake?

[spiritwolf333]

Do You Want to Get Sober or Just Reduce Intake?

THREAD SUMMARY TO DATE:

Perhaps in my ramblings, I lost track of the topic of this thread.

NEWCOMERS:
DO YOU WANT TO GET SOBER OR JUST REDUCE INTAKE?

In my opinion, it does appear that both options are possible -to some degree.

(1) DRINK AND TITRATE W/BACLOFEN: We have some members that drank continuously while titrating up on baclofen. It seems as though these members starting drinking less as they continued increasing their baclofen dosage. At some point, these members realized that they no longer wanted to drink and could then choose to just drink one, two, or none. I am not sure of the side effects or difficulty while drinking and taking baclofen. Some of these members have shared their stories and will happy to share again with you.

(2) ABSTINENCE THEN DRINK Secondly, there are some members that became totally free of alcohol before choosing to drink again. For these members to realize that they had reached "indifference" to alcohol, they had to drink some alcohol -obviously. If a point of indifference had been reached using baclofen prior to this taking of alcohol, then the member can/could very easily choose to drink just one or many. It has been reported by some members that even though they over did the drinking the night before, they suffered no major withdrawal issues the next day -or at least, no major cravings.

(3) ABSTINENCE AND NO MORE ALCOHOL
Thirdly, there are members who report that they took their baclofen, put the plug in the jug, said goodbye to alcohol, and have remained sober from that day forward. The negative side effects most commonly reported from this elected route to freedom are more related to having to deal with life without the numbing effects of alcohol. It has also been reported by some that the early negative side effects of baclofen eventually dissipate.


If you are a newcomer and you happen to be reading this thread, I am glad that you were able to make it through to this summary. For me, baclofen saved my life from an alcohol execution. It was not an easy route to take but it was better than any other method that I had ever tried before in order to become sober.

Baclofen offers a "new" type of hope to those addicted to alcohol. The even greater news is the fact that other drugs are now being developed that help one become free from the chemical dependence of alcohol. These newer drugs will be more predictable in terms of dosage and have fewer negative side effects. These newer drugs have the potential to save many more thousands of lives. So our children and others down the road may have an opportunity to choose a better path to freedom.

[terryk]

Do You Want to Get Sober or Just Reduce Intake?

spiritwolf333;1664110 wrote: THREAD SUMMARY TO DATE:

Perhaps in my ramblings, I lost track of the topic of this thread.

NEWCOMERS:
DO YOU WANT TO GET SOBER OR JUST REDUCE INTAKE?

In my opinion, it does appear that both options are possible -to some degree.


Nope, you didn't lose track of the topic - you've changed it completely.

These are the main points of your original post:

spiritwolf333;1662765 wrote:

• to keep drinking while taking baclofen while trying to quit alcohol is absurd.
  • Sure, there have been a few folks on here that have some type of success doing do, but for the majority, it just does not work.
    Only expect the baclofen miracle if you stop drinking.
  
  If we are to do justice to Baclofen and Dr. Ameisen on this site, then I would suggest we promote total abstinence for a long period of time.

Now you're contradicting yourself.

-tk

[terryk]

Do You Want to Get Sober or Just Reduce Intake?

spiritwolf333;1664095 wrote:

Ne- You will NEVER find ONE instance where I have said any thing negative, or, otherwise judgmental about someone who now drinks continuously , has ever drank in past, or who chooses to drink moderately.

2 more:

spiritwolf333;1633891 wrote:
No Stuck, baclofen is not the solution, but it is helpful. It helps the scientists more fully understand how a baclofen type medication might be extremely helpful in the future.

And Stuck, please help us all (if you have time in-between dissertation writings) understand just how well the not-drinking program is working for you. Not to be combative -just to try and understand. Or perhaps tomorrow morning might be a better time to hear from you?

spiritwolf333;1634482 wrote: Insightful response Colin (as usual).

And Colin -was this really one of your posts? (December 2013)

At one point I had reduced baclofen to 67.5 mg and noticed better alertness in the afternoon. I also noticed that the beer was tasting very nice indeed which was the reason for returning to 75 mg. There has been some discussion on other threads about gabapentin helping control alcohol consumption and a scientific justification (JAMA Network | JAMA Internal Medicine | Gabapentin Treatment for Alcohol Dependence: ?*A Randomized Clinical Trial) for same. I am likely to repeat the drop in baclofen to see if I can tolerate very tasty beer.
During the trial at 67.5 I noticed some euphoria returning to accompany orgasms which made me sad when I went back up to 75 mg. Bleep once suggested diving down on the baclofen for a mini-bender and a few shags before driving the baclofen back up again. Maybe a slower approach will work? I don't need the mini-bender but .....

How is that Baclofen working for you and your abstinence?

-tk

[Cassander]

Do You Want to Get Sober or Just Reduce Intake?

This is all a bit sad.

Both for us and for newcomers.

For us, because no one posting on this thread disagrees that baclofen is an effective treatment for alcoholism. Baclofen works.

I dare say:

Everyone of us agrees that high dose baclofen is hard to take and that some quit over the side effects without reaching indifference.

Everyone of us agrees that drinking excessively while titrating up may exacerbate the side effects and the whole trip might go smoother if we drink less while going up.

Everyone of us agrees that it is possible to drink, even heavily, while titrating up and still reach indifference.

Everyone of us agrees that alcohol is a tricky adversary and that drinking after reaching indifference entails some risk. For many reasons.

Everyone of us agrees that if you reach indifference on baclofen and keep taking your maintenance dose, you can probably drink occasionally without major risk.

Everyone of us agrees that discontinuing baclofen altogether after reaching indifference is risky.

Everyone of us agrees that reaching indifference is only the beginning of learning how to live normally without alcohol.

I might even say that this thread is conclusive proof of that!

I think this thread is also a bit sad for newbies if the takeaway is that baclofen is something less than promised.

Its not. Its a powerful drug. It deserves respect. It has side effects. It takes time. You might want to stop taking it. But if you don't and you just keep taking the damn pills you are more than likely to reach indifference. Baclofen works.

I kind of think alcoholics just love to argue. Especially with each other. Big surprise. If we were so well adjusted in the first place we might not be who we are. Don't let the bickering on this thread stop you from trying baclofen if you really want to quit drinking alcoholically.

I hope I have not offended anybody. We are who we are.

Cassander

[Calikime]

Do You Want to Get Sober or Just Reduce Intake?

Xadrian;1664032 wrote:

Can I hear a similar short summary from others forum members, just for the facts, the statistics and opinions?

I drank during my titration of baclofen. Since it took me over 5 months to become indifferent, I doubt I would have been able to do it abstinent. I remember my first experience of indifference starting to take hold. I was at a restaurant with my husband and I ordered a second glass of wine. As soon as I started to drink it, the feeling that I could just stop and leave the rest of my drink on the table came over me. It was the most wonderful feeling - like for the first time I was in control and not the alcohol. I wasn't totally indifferent at that point (at 110 mgs), but about a month later when I had increased another 30 mgs I became indifferent. I will say that I did have to make the decision at that point to not drink. It's not like I would come home and find it impossible to drink or anything. I just made the decision to do that, and honestly it wasn't even on my mind. I have had a few occasions since then where I have had some wine, but it doesn't start me down a path of wanting to drink the next night. These were always functions away from home. But the last two times were at home when our grown children came to visit from out of town. I did notice that I thought about having some wine a few nights after that but it was still easy to make the decision to not drink. I know that the "habit" part will take some time to get over since nightly drinking was my life for 30 years. I am still pretty new at this since I only became indifferent in mid March. I am currently working my way down very slowly to find my maintenance dose. I am at 105 and I think I will stay there for the time being, given the fact that I had those "thoughts".

[emc]

Do You Want to Get Sober or Just Reduce Intake?

I've started take Baclofen in Jan 2013 (+400 days ago!) with the goal of doing something with my alcohol addiction.
I knew from a lot of people testimonials that Baclofen would make something.
I continue to drink for all the treatment but i saw that already from the beginning my alc/day went down by 2/3, even in low doses i was consuming 1/3 in comparison of before.

It was already a great point for me!
Let's call it harm reduction and I could even stop there.
I was already satisfied but, obviously, i continue to slowly mount my daily doses of Baclofen until a moment that i felt "something"...
Not at all an on/off like certain have (indifference from one day to the other), but i felt that my relation with alcohol on 165mg was completely changed.

I was finally able to "choose" if to drink or not and often i was still choosing to do it, in small quantity, but anyway.
I became able to stop whenever i wanted without quite any effort and this was totally new to me!
Then slowly lowering the doses even the alc/day start to went down and now i quite don't drink anymore.

My goal of a "not problematic drinking" has been reached (average of 6gr/alc/day last 5 months = a small glass of beer as daily average).

With the time Baclofen slowly changed in my case even the way I relate to alcohol and so, after a day when happens to drink 3-4 beers (picnic/party etc) I now evaluate even the consequences of bad mood and hangover of the day after...
Sometime i order this 4th, often NO.
Baclofen is know to work (even) on this circuits of memory and learning... and does much more. ;-)

[Sarah42]

Do You Want to Get Sober or Just Reduce Intake?

with the exception of the last 2 or 3 posts ...I can only say "holy shit...that's 2 hours I'll never get back!"

[YouKayBee]

Do You Want to Get Sober or Just Reduce Intake?

emc;1664174 wrote: I've started take Baclofen in Jan 2013 (+400 days ago!) with the goal of doing something with my alcohol addiction.
I knew from a lot of people testimonials that Baclofen would make something.
I continue to drink for all the treatment but i saw that already from the beginning my alc/day went down by 2/3, even in low doses i was consuming 1/3 in comparison of before.

It was already a great point for me!
Let's call it harm reduction and I could even stop there.
I was already satisfied but, obviously, i continue to slowly mount my daily doses of Baclofen until a moment that i felt "something"...
Not at all an on/off like certain have (indifference from one day to the other), but i felt that my relation with alcohol on 165mg was completely changed.

I was finally able to "choose" if to drink or not and often i was still choosing to do it, in small quantity, but anyway.
I became able to stop whenever i wanted without quite any effort and this was totally new to me!
Then slowly lowering the doses even the alc/day start to went down and now i quite don't drink anymore.

My goal of a "not problematic drinking" has been reached (average of 6gr/alc/day last 5 months = a small glass of beer as daily average).

With the time Baclofen slowly changed in my case even the way I relate to alcohol and so, after a day when happens to drink 3-4 beers (picnic/party etc) I now evaluate even the consequences of bad mood and hangover of the day after...
Sometime i order this 4th, often NO.
Baclofen is know to work (even) on this circuits of memory and learning... and does much more. ;-)

Well done on the change in relationship with alcohol.

For me the Sinclair Method was very much initially harm-reduction, but over time there came a much greater shift. The way I now see it is that there is no need for alcohol, it's a poison to the body, and not the 'norm' that society necessarily sees it as. As a result I started to question why I was even bothering, on the occasions I drank it was 'just because' and I decided to (a) take out the risk associated with continuing to drink even on meds and (b) and not drink just because it was expected of me - in fact at the end of the day I realised I wasn't even really enjoying it any more, to me it was all a bit of a con.

At the time I thought I was 'cured', 'recovered' etc and although I was part way there I was still in part of the population who still have a drink 'just because'.

I have had the occasional difficult spot, but that was mostly because living sober 24/7 without any meds/drugs (staying without anti-ds, or any other mind altering med is something very important to me), constantly being in the world is tiring. I've also had a struggle with comfort eating, however I am confronting that one head on.

F***ing hell, life is hard without any drink/drugs/meds BUT it's real life and I am proud to be living it on my own wits.

I do consume caffeine but have reduced that one recently and it's ok, in fact it's helped with a few health issues that had appeared and now think are probably more to do with diet/caffeine that anything else and it's nice to be free of that.

[Molly78]

Do You Want to Get Sober or Just Reduce Intake?

A newbie speaks

I have been reading the posts on this site for some time as a visitor, mainly because there seems to be no action on my preferred site (Baclofen for alcoholism & other addictions). I finally registered really to try to say something like Cassander just said. Her post is an excellent summary, I would only emphasise that alcohol significantly increases the side effects of baclofen for most people - I managed to do myself significant harm physically before I realised that I (& this is individual to me) really had to give up alcohol for a period of time to allow the baclofen to do it's job. I am now drinking within "normal" limits, taking 30-40mg baclofen daily, & very grateful to be where I am compared to 6 months ago.

It seems there are many ways to reach relative/total sobriety with baclofen. This site must be very off putting for people just starting out, it's more like a big cat fight than a support group. I would advise anyone just starting out should go straight to the other site I mentioned & post whatever questions they have, I am sure help will be forthcoming.

It's great to have "robust" discussions like you seem to have here, but people who are still drinking, are anxious & apprehensive, looking for help & advice, need a more nurturing environment.

OK you can all now pitch in & call me whatever rude names you want.

[spiritwolf333]

Do You Want to Get Sober or Just Reduce Intake?

Cassander;1664124 wrote: This is all a bit sad.

Both for us and for newcomers.

For us, because no one posting on this thread disagrees that baclofen is an effective treatment for alcoholism. Baclofen works.

I dare say:

Everyone of us agrees that high dose baclofen is hard to take and that some quit over the side effects without reaching indifference.

Everyone of us agrees that drinking excessively while titrating up may exacerbate the side effects and the whole trip might go smoother if we drink less while going up.

Everyone of us agrees that it is possible to drink, even heavily, while titrating up and still reach indifference.

Everyone of us agrees that alcohol is a tricky adversary and that drinking after reaching indifference entails some risk. For many reasons.

Everyone of us agrees that if you reach indifference on baclofen and keep taking your maintenance dose, you can probably drink occasionally without major risk.

Everyone of us agrees that discontinuing baclofen altogether after reaching indifference is risky.

Everyone of us agrees that reaching indifference is only the beginning of learning how to live normally without alcohol.

I might even say that this thread is conclusive proof of that!

I think this thread is also a bit sad for newbies if the takeaway is that baclofen is something less than promised.

Its not. Its a powerful drug. It deserves respect. It has side effects. It takes time. You might want to stop taking it. But if you don't and you just keep taking the damn pills you are more than likely to reach indifference. Baclofen works.

I kind of think alcoholics just love to argue. Especially with each other. Big surprise. If we were so well adjusted in the first place we might not be who we are. Don't let the bickering on this thread stop you from trying baclofen if you really want to quit drinking alcoholically.

I hope I have not offended anybody. We are who we are.

Cassander

Hi Cass -thank you for your insight.

Your statement "I hope I have not offended anybody. We are who we are" really hits home with me. How could I ever be "offended" by the truth? (me -bruised ego and disappointment in myself). You have summarized and stated truisms in perfect fashion.

After looking back and reading this thread and a few others that I started, I truly see where I have been part of the problem and not part of the solution. Most of the time, I would like to think that I offered helpful information (or other)to a potential baclofen candidate. I now see where they may have just simply chose to ignore my thread(s).

I must think back to when I first started baclofen and the elimination of alcohol. I was not very able to read or comprehend very much (no comment Ne/TK). I was anxious, paranoid, desperate, depressed, and hopeless. I was just trying to find answers regarding this Baclofen medication. Had I been faced with trying to read Baclofen information amidst all of this foolish "bickering", I would have remained lost. These aggressive type discussions can be quite energy and enthusiasm draining.

Cass -"alcoholics like to argue?" Wow, how true. Having only been somewhat sober for a little over a year now, I need to try and remember that my brain and ego are still trying to catch up. My bit of alcohol free time has NOT earned me any merit badges or -awards in counseling.

I think that I have successfully demonstrated my lack of emotional maturity here on this thread (by arguing points of opinions and trying to defend myself)

Newcomer, regardless of whatever I or others have posters have said on this thread, please realize that , Baclofen can work very successfully to remove alcohol from your life and/or reduce your level of intake. Many questions that you may have - have already been answered on this forum. Just Google "mywayout" + "your question". Hopefully, you can bypass threads like this one -filled with "bickering".

[Samandkatharine]

Do You Want to Get Sober or Just Reduce Intake?

Molly78;1664255 wrote: I have been reading the posts on this site for some time as a visitor, mainly because there seems to be no action on my preferred site (Baclofen for alcoholism & other addictions). I finally registered really to try to say something like Cassander just said. Her post is an excellent summary, I would only emphasise that alcohol significantly increases the side effects of baclofen for most people - I managed to do myself significant harm physically before I realised that I (& this is individual to me) really had to give up alcohol for a period of time to allow the baclofen to do it's job. I am now drinking within "normal" limits, taking 30-40mg baclofen daily, & very grateful to be where I am compared to 6 months ago.

It seems there are many ways to reach relative/total sobriety with baclofen. This site must be very off putting for people just starting out, it's more like a big cat fight than a support group. I would advise anyone just starting out should go straight to the other site I mentioned & post whatever questions they have, I am sure help will be forthcoming.

It's great to have "robust" discussions like you seem to have here, but people who are still drinking, are anxious & apprehensive, looking for help & advice, need a more nurturing environment.

OK you can all now pitch in & call me whatever rude names you want.

Hi Molly!
Just saying hi! The other site is dead. Too bad.

Sam

[Molly78]

Do You Want to Get Sober or Just Reduce Intake?

Hi Sam.

What a shame. I felt a lot more comfortable posting there, the comments felt a lot more balanced, people sounded more thoughtful, less aggressive - even the same people I recognise on here have a slightly different voice over there. But I guess many are drawn to excitement & arguments, the other site is very, dare I say it? - sober!!

Molly

[Xadrian]

Do You Want to Get Sober or Just Reduce Intake?

Molly78;1664386 wrote: Hi Sam.

What a shame. I felt a lot more comfortable posting there, the comments felt a lot more balanced, people sounded more thoughtful, less aggressive - even the same people I recognise on here have a slightly different voice over there. But I guess many are drawn to excitement & arguments, the other site is very, dare I say it? - sober!!

Molly

Hi Molly, welcome here.

The other site was moderated by some forum members, that's why.
Although it sometimes appears not, the members here are very supportive.
The fact is that sometimes there are different opinions and some people seem to have to force their own opinion down to others' throat, even when the statistics prove otherwise.

But hey, there's some argumenting and quarreling in every large community, so don't let that disappoint you. Just filter out the info you need and decide what's useable yourself.

[Molly78]

Do You Want to Get Sober or Just Reduce Intake?

Thank you for your welcome, Xadrian.

I don't think we have all that many "statistics" to work with. We have Ameisen's book which is the story of HIS recovery with baclofen, but then he is just one sort of alcoholic. Many of us are not like him - the difference between 2- 3 monthly binges which put you into hospital, & those of us who have been quietly consuming a bottle of wine or more at home every evening whilst getting on with life but simultaneously destroying our livers, could not be greater.

It would be surprising if the same regime worked for all of us. Once baclofen is used widely, there will be some information to work with. Til then, I think we need to pool our resources & information rather than scrapping between ourselves.

If I sound like a mother of 3 grown up sons who has spent most of her adult life trying to advocate for peace, that's because I am. So look - just PLAY NICELY, don't be mean to each other & I will give you all A BAG OF CHOCOLATE BUTTONS before bed. OK? DEAL?

[StuckinLA]

Do You Want to Get Sober or Just Reduce Intake?

I swear to G*d I will *murder* people for a bag of chocolate buttons. Mmmm. Chocolate.

I think you're pointing out a difference of degree more than kind, Molly. The 'quietly consuming a bottle+ of wine per night' is no less problematic than the hospital-bound binges. Baclofen can work for both. I was a quietly-consuming type for a lot of years - sitting at home minding my own business, watching TV or whatever, drinking my bottle of bourbon. And it was really sudden, like almost overnight it seems, that I was going into earth-shattering anxiety and dangerous withdrawal after even a night or two of (what I consider) moderate drinking. Either way, it's my opinion that the same underlying mechanisms are at work in both.

Oh, and :welcome: