Do You Want to Get Sober or Just Reduce Intake?

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Do You Want to Get Sober or Just Reduce Intake?

terryk;1672577 wrote:
It galls me that you think that your perfect attendance record (of what, a year?) gives you license to pass judgement on whose recovery is a valid one,

Perhaps it is that his attendance record is not perfect, and he still drinks against his will and feels terrible about it (by his own account, five times) that this is an issue for him?

I honestly can't figure out why someone who doesn't care about booze, and is actually indifferent to it, should care so damn much about it. That is one explanation. If his recovery is not valid, if he's still insecure about it, then perhaps that also explains why there is so much insistence on finding a different solution.

But we won't actually know, Spirit, until you actually write something about your own experience. Until then, it's all just conjecture. Much like most of what is posted by you, Spirit.

conjecture - Google Search

[kronkcarr]

Do You Want to Get Sober or Just Reduce Intake?

guapo,

These are good questions. Thanks. For me I'd come to a point where I wanted to stop my behavior when I was drinking. I thought this meant I had to stop drinking. At this time I'd read Dr Ameisen's book but didn't think it applied to me. Then I did some stuff I wasn't happy with and I thought baclofen was a good idea. I was attracted to bac because there was the idea that I wouldn't have to stop drinking completely.

I'd done AA and RR and didn't want to attend meetings and be in a group. Initially I had 1-3 drinks infrequently with friends. I didn't have alcohol in my home and wouldn't drink alone which was my MO.

Baclofen worked for me. Sure I had side effects but I seem to have forgotten them until I read back in my journals. And it's not a magic pill. But I'd had a bit of therapy through the years and I KNEW who I was so my life turned around pretty quickly. All the crap I drank about--getting used, doing things I didn't want, not speaking up and on and on are out of my life.

I have 1-3 drinks whenever. It's not nightly and weeks can go by when I don't drink. I'm indifferent so alcohol just doesn't matter. It doesn't take up space in my head or my thoughts.

[spiritwolf333]

Do You Want to Get Sober or Just Reduce Intake?

terryk;1672577 wrote: Spirit - It's been 3 weeks, are you still playing the holier-than-thou shame game?

I've been indifferent and sober on high-dose baclofen for nearly 4 years now. I'm pretty confident that I have the experience and perspective to know that my recovery from alcoholism is both sound and sustainable. The 1 or 2 beers I have at infrequent social occasions are such a miniscule part of my life that they are hardly worth mentioning. If anything, the only impact they make is to affirm that baclofen has enabled me to beat my addiction: gone is the euphoria during drinking, and gone are the cravings after. More often than not, my glass is left on the table half full. Even so, I'm not foolish enough to believe that my experience is universal, or that it makes it okay to say that anyone else can, or should, continue to drink on baclofen.

It galls me that you think that your perfect attendance record (of what, a year?) gives you license to pass judgement on whose recovery is a valid one, or that you possess the clout, comprehension, or clarity to *lead* discussions on what treatment protocols and medications are effective, and what are not. I don't post much here anymore largely because I feel that *your* inflammatory, confused and confusing input (especially in threads like this one, "** BACLOFEN IS NOT THE SOLUTION **", etc.) has done a lot of damage against the meds forum functioning as a useful place for finding quality information about real, viable pharmacological solutions to addiction. Is it a coincidence that the traffic here has dropped to near zero lately (and I'm talking about before the recent spam attacks)?

-tk

Hi Terry -thank you for this message.

I really DO appreciate you explaining your level of indifference and the fact that you have essentially remained alcohol free for almost four years now. For me Terry, this information is both motivational and helpful -to me at least. Alcohol is no longer part of your life –and truly sounds as if it is almost never even a passing thought. As you say, Baclofen was your primary means to “beat” your addiction and this is awesome news. I hope newcomers will read your threads and potentially learn from your experience.

Terry, you have mentioned my non-drinking record several times. Where did you find this information? I have NEVER said that I had stopped drinking for a year. In fact, several times I have said just the opposite. TK, this is a disappointing and FALSE statement you make. Why?

My experience with drinking and baclofen has led me to the conclusion that I can have that occasional drink and not have follow-up cravings. I have also experienced “out-drinking-the Baclofen” where the mental craving can aggressively jump back into my world. I am thankful that I have only experienced that one time and once was enough to convince me that alcohol does NOT belong in my life. For me, and most all other people, alcohol is just a means to change the way one feels or thinks –and as such, I now choose not to go that road.

Terry, I have never passed judgment (intentionally) on anyone. I try to avoid doing this at all costs. I truly work very hard to avoid passing judgment. A few experiences years ago helped teach me the value of not being judgmental. With this said, I am the first to admit that I still make many mistakes.

Terry, you make the following statement:
“It galls me that you think that your perfect attendance record (of what, a year?) gives you license to pass judgement on whose recovery is a valid one, or that you possess the clout, comprehension, or clarity to *lead* discussions on what treatment protocols and medications are effective, and what are not.”

strong>Terry –who is being judgmental in your statement?

On these so-called “combative” threads, much information and experiences were shared. It was only after the conversations became “attacks” did the threads start losing the ability to gather helpful information. In my opinion, there are about nine staunch supporters of baclofen that regularly post. If anything is said that comes close to offering alternative ides to baclofen, the nine step in to try and attack whomever made the post –and it appears they close their minds to any ideas outside of Baclofen.. These attacks are what are harmful to site –at least that is my opinion.

MWO is NOT a site dedicated exclusively to the use of Baclofen –just read the forum headings. I will say it again, Baclofen works for some but not for the majority –at least this is the conclusion that I have come to after researching and listening to others.

Terry -your opinion of me is none of my business, yet I still sometimes find myself being concerned that it is. Just a thought.

[spiritwolf333]

Do You Want to Get Sober or Just Reduce Intake?

guapo;1671626 wrote: Is the point of baclofen to reduce your drinking, or to stop drinking, and if you do stop drinking, will that be something that you'll be needing to take for the rest of your life, because that's the way it sounds to me.

Just curious people's thoughts on that ?

Hi Guapo -thanks for the questions. It is my opinion that some want and need to stop drinking for-ever. Very rarely will you ever hear a real alcoholic say that they want to stop drinking entirely. Take some pills and moderate is the dream of every alcoholic. At least this is the initial response.

There is no reported long term research available for Baclofen for alcoholism. I have several (many) posts where people speak of finding their maintenance dose. I think the question of "how long" to take Baclofen is simply just not know.

[Fred_The_Cat]

Do You Want to Get Sober or Just Reduce Intake?

For Christ sake man,

This thread died on May 28 after a massive shitshow, and you bump it SIXTEEN days later to start it up again. I always thought trolling had to be defined in terms of intent, but the effects can be just as hilariously (or embarrassingly) devastating without intent.

Give it a rest.

[terryk]

Do You Want to Get Sober or Just Reduce Intake?

spiritwolf333;1672844 wrote:

Terry, you have mentioned my non-drinking record several times. Where did you find this information? I have NEVER said that I had stopped drinking for a year. In fact, several times I have said just the opposite. TK, this is a disappointing and FALSE statement you make. Why?
Wrong, I've mentioned it only once, and I posed it as a question "of what, one year?" It's not how long you've been abstinent, it's that you keep foisting it on everyone else with statements like "If we are to do justice to Baclofen and Dr. Ameisen on this site, then I would suggest we promote total abstinence for a long period of time."

spiritwolf333;1672844 wrote:
Terry, I have never passed judgment (intentionally) on anyone. I try to avoid doing this at all costs. I truly work very hard to avoid passing judgment. A few experiences years ago helped teach me the value of not being judgmental. With this said, I am the first to admit that I still make many mistakes.
Do you really believe any of that? How can you lack the sense to realize the implicit judgment and condescension in your question "But have you had periods of total abstinence?" You replied to my previous post already, why would you bump it/this thread again three weeks later? Just to provoke me? It's not the first time you've taken that tack (and been obliviously unapologetic about it):

https://www.mywayout.org/community/f2...ml#post1664103

https://www.mywayout.org/community/f2...ml#post1634482

spiritwolf333;1672844 wrote:
On these so-called ?combative? threads, much information and experiences were shared. It was only after the conversations became ?attacks? did the threads start losing the ability to gather helpful information.

Really? Please tell me how the potential for helpful information was not doomed from the start in https://www.mywayout.org/community/f2...ml#post1633880 :

spiritwolf333;1633880 wrote:
A)** BACLOFEN IS NOT THE SOLUTION **
B) let me please say that baclofen was the solution to my alcoholism.

A)And the so-called illusive "switch". To chase this particular event is time wasted in my opinion.
B)There will come a time when your mind tells you it would rather not feel bad after drinking -so don't drink. This is the miracle of baclofen. This never occurred before when I had abstained from drinking and it has now, so great.

A)Baclofen is not the answer.
B)It is a great answer if you were like me and at the end of your ropes with no other solutions.

Contradiction upon contradiction, IN YOUR FIRST POST - Do you think that these signposts on your roadmap to recovery make sense to *anyone,* much less newcomers visiting the site for the first time?

spiritwolf333;1672844 wrote:
In my opinion, there are about nine staunch supporters of baclofen that regularly post. If anything is said that comes close to offering alternative ides to baclofen, the nine step in to try and attack whomever made the post ?and it appears they close their minds to any ideas outside of Baclofen.. These attacks are what are harmful to site ?at least that is my opinion.

I think that actually it's much more than nine people who find your continual posting of the same themes with sensationalized headlines and barely coherent arguments, false consensus, and unsubstantiated "facts" disruptive, not the views you have on Baclofen or alternative treatments (Just my opinion, of course).

spiritwolf333;1672844 wrote:
MWO is NOT a site dedicated exclusively to the use of Baclofen ?just read the forum headings.

I agree wholeheartedly.

spiritwolf333;1672844 wrote:
I will say it again, Baclofen works for some but not for the majority ?at least this is the conclusion that I have come to after researching and listening to others.

Well then I'll say this again: The results of the French trials will soon be in and we'll *actually* know if science deems Baclofen efficacious. Then it will be up to the doctors to decide who gets prescribed and how much. In the meantime Spirit, you might want to give the numbers of this Gabapentin trial(12 weeks) the same scrutiny that you gave this Baclofen study (2 years) here.

-tk

[spiritwolf333]

Do You Want to Get Sober or Just Reduce Intake?

terryk;1673060 wrote:

Well then I'll say this again: The results of the French trials will soon be in and we'll *actually* know if science deems Baclofen efficacious. Then it will be up to the doctors to decide who gets prescribed and how much. In the meantime Spirit, you might want to give the numbers of this Gabapentin trial(12 weeks) the same scrutiny that you gave this Baclofen study (2 years) here.

-tk

Hi Terry --Well, not much I can say regarding this post. Wow, you nailed me -again. Ouch!

Terry, for the benefit of all those that have tried Baclofen and did not have positive results, is there a chance that you could have an open mind to other medications? Are we all not seeking somewhat of the same goal; to be free of alcohol?

TK, the French studies will indicate that Baclofen works to reduce or eliminate alcohol from one's life. I believe we all already know this and it is my hope that more doctors will begin to prescribe Baclofen. However, as many of us know, Baclofen is just not an easy road to travel. Think in terms of millions of alcoholics, not in terms of a few hundred.

Finally TK, I came across this Herbert Spencer quote again and I had to ask myself if this applied to me -just a thought (Gabapentin/other meds):

"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation”

TK, have you ever tried Gabapentin?

[spiritwolf333]

Do You Want to Get Sober or Just Reduce Intake?

Fred_The_Cat;1672872 wrote: For Christ sake man,

This thread died on May 28 after a massive shitshow, and you bump it SIXTEEN days later to start it up again. I always thought trolling had to be defined in terms of intent, but the effects can be just as hilariously (or embarrassingly) devastating without intent.

Give it a rest.

Fred -I hope things are finally starting to go your way. The ups and downs can be hell -at least for me they can be. And when I was drinking, the ups and downs were off the charts. I always ended up saying or writing things that I later regretted. Thanks for helping me remember the hells of full blown alcoholism.

I wanted to repost one of your other most recent posts -? (Fred, I know you are just trying to be funny, but I am not so sure this fits the "funny" category.

Posted by Fred Cat -06-05-2014
"The senior council of MWO needs to form a committee to discuss the issue of this thread at length (whatever it was). After much fierce intellectual debate, the wisdom and true meaning will be distilled from the thread's manifold viewpoints. The council of elders will then pass on to the scribes this profound wisdom, and they shall dip into their inkwells and draft a sticky thread that the naive, inexperienced newcomer may not be led astray. And it will be good, and all will be well.

And then the senior council shall decree that all MWO shall meet near the edge of a volcano with all their alcohol on hand, and lots will be drawn- that the loser must throw all his alcohol and first born son into the volcano to satisfy the Higher Power, and all shall be well again.

And Fred shall emerge from his cage, renouncing alcohol once and for all. He shall become addled with catnip and act out his kitten hood dream of mounting his sister and beating the crap out of the runt brother, for in total abstinence, he will have found the way.
Amen."

(BTW, Fred your last five posts have all been posts on one of my threads. I beginning to wonder if I have been trolled and had no clue -lol)

[Fred_The_Cat]

Do You Want to Get Sober or Just Reduce Intake?

Spirit, I'm the most hardened of Internet trolls. I've had several IP bannings, caused a revolt against the moderators on one forum and have even been praised by my victims for my brilliant troll techniques.

But what you've managed to accomplish here astounds even me. I could not have deliberately done better.

[Fred_The_Cat]

Do You Want to Get Sober or Just Reduce Intake?

Btw- my cat Fred really did mount his sister and beat the crap out of his runt brother. That stopped when he was neutered.

[StuckinLA]

Do You Want to Get Sober or Just Reduce Intake?

Hahahahaha. Well played, Fred. But there's no way you're ever getting me to throw my booze in that volcano, Higher Power Council Elders be damned.

[terryk]

Do You Want to Get Sober or Just Reduce Intake?

spiritwolf333;1673239 wrote: Hi Terry --Well, not much I can say regarding this post. Wow, you nailed me -again. Ouch!

Terry, for the benefit of all those that have tried Baclofen and did not have positive results, is there a chance that you could have an open mind to other medications? Are we all not seeking somewhat of the same goal; to be free of alcohol?

TK, the French studies will indicate that Baclofen works to reduce or eliminate alcohol from one's life. I believe we all already know this and it is my hope that more doctors will begin to prescribe Baclofen. However, as many of us know, Baclofen is just not an easy road to travel. Think in terms of millions of alcoholics, not in terms of a few hundred.

Finally TK, I came across this Herbert Spencer quote again and I had to ask myself if this applied to me -just a thought (Gabapentin/other meds):

"There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance - that principle is contempt prior to investigation”

TK, have you ever tried Gabapentin?

Wow Spirit, this edited reply is a 180 degree flip-flop from the one you originally posted - the one where you said that I have a such a passion for Baclofen that I insist that it's 100% the primary solution to alcoholism, that I'm familiar with the quote that you've now attributed to Herbert Spencer (plus that I should read it again), along with some nonsense about how I attack people that "are only trying to help." (and how ostensibly bad that makes me). None of it is true.

I have never directly encouraged anyone to take baclofen, much less promote it as the number one solution to alcoholism - and I have a long track record here of standing up to all disruptive posters who would besmirch *any* possible treatment for addiction, or would prime others for failure with fear mongering over side-effects (which I would NEVER deny exist), shitty science, or just plain incoherent, contradictory advice.

If you want proof, search my post history for the keyword "FUCK" It's the sixth one down from the top (from 2011). I would post the link directly, but the other member that is implicated in the post and I have put our differences in the past, and really doesn't deserve to have the unfortunate episode dredged up again.

-tk

p.s I don't need a "thank you" for this post or any validation. I don't want to argue with you and I don't want to clean up after you. Please stop posting shit that makes me feel like I have to.

[spiritwolf333]

Do You Want to Get Sober or Just Reduce Intake?

terryk;1673383 wrote:

I have never directly encouraged anyone to take baclofen, much less promote it as the number one solution to alcoholism -

and I have a long track record here of standing up to all disruptive posters who would besmirch *any* possible treatment for addiction, or would prime others for failure with fear mongering over side-effects (which I would NEVER deny exist), shitty science, or just plain incoherent, contradictory advice.

Terry K -The Enforcer! Your track record appears to indicate that you attack anyone who has a different opinion than yours. Terry, your record speaks for itself -both the good-positive posts and the personal attacks. Please consider other medications TK as possibilities -even Gabapentin (it feels like its been besmirched).

If you want proof, search my post history for the keyword "FUCK" It's the sixth one down from the top (from 2011).

-tk

p.s I don't need a "thank you" for this post or any validation. I don't want to argue with you and I don't want to clean up after you. Please stop posting shit that makes me feel like I have to.

"OUCH"

Thanks again Terry for you input.

[Fred_The_Cat]

Do You Want to Get Sober or Just Reduce Intake?

This thread has gotten confusing- it should be summarized again so the vulnerable newcomer will not be led astray.

[spiritwolf333]

Do You Want to Get Sober or Just Reduce Intake?

spiritwolf333;1662765 wrote: We have all heard that if quitting alcohol were easy, we would get drunk every night. Stopping the use of a substance that we are physically and or mentally addicted to is not easy. In fact, it can be quite a fearful prospect for a true alcohol or other addict. And I further suggest this; any true alcoholic (at first) only wants to reduce consumption, not quit -the dream.

It is only my opinion but I stand by it and it is this; baclofen is a very difficult medication to take -especially In high doses. With no alcohol involved at all, it can offer extreme challenges. It is plain and simply a very difficult drug to take for the elimination of alcohol. But it can and does work -but is only one tool in the "toolbox". Perseverance and pain from alcohol abuse are prerequisites for most people (real alcoholics) to quit drinking.

Finally, again, this is only an opinion, but to keep drinking while taking baclofen while trying to quit alcohol is absurd. Sure, there have been a few folks on here that have some type of success doing do, but for the majority, it just does not work. You are taking a medication that reverses the brain damage caused by abusive drinking. How can Baclofen do it's job if you continue to drink? When you have any other type of injury, can it really heal until you stop the behavior that was causing it in the first place?

This post is for the newcomer. Only expect the baclofen miracle if you stop drinking. Sure, there may/will come a day when you can actually choose to drink one or two and then quit. If you are an alcoholic, it will probably suck just drinking a few because you are not drinking for taste, you are drinking to change the way you think or feel -and you want it to last.

If we are to do justice to Baclofen and Dr. Ameisen on this site, then I would suggest we promote total abstinence for a long period of time. (Perhaps I should have said: "for some period of time")

Just a Thought

Thanks for reminding me.