Need advice about withdrawal, tapering, meds. LONG POST PLS help (X-post from intro)

[neophyte]

Need advice about withdrawal, tapering, meds. LONG POST PLS help (X-post from intro)

you only need to follow the ashton manual if you have a benzo dependence. If you have only been taking it for less than 2-4 weeks, you should be able to come off quite quickly. whatever you do though, get off them as soon as possible. horrible things to come off, much worse than alcohol or any other drug addiction I have experienced.

[Alien]

Need advice about withdrawal, tapering, meds. LONG POST PLS help (X-post from intro)

Thanks for your replies!

Palladium;1665628 wrote:
You’ve already mentioned kindling—do you have a history of major withdrawal syndrome: seizures, hallucinations? The more often this happens, the more likely it is to happen again—that, effectively, is the kindling process.

As mentioned in my (likely far too long OP), last weekend was the first time I had any serious signs of either seizure related activity or severe withdrawal, apart from two weeks prior after my last cold turkey.

Palladium;1665628 wrote:
If this is day seven AF, then I think that you’re probably through the worst of your alcohol withdrawal. If anything serious was going to happen, then it would have happened by now.
This is day 5, day 1 was the night I was admitted into hospital. So technically I guess day 4, with this morning being the 5th.

Palladium;1665628 wrote:
You should be more concerned with your haphazard use of diazepam. If I were you, I’d start trying to formulate a sensible dosing regimen, and try and stick to it.

For instance: 5mg four times a day: 07h/12h/17h/22h.

This is what I've been aiming for, 5x4 per day. And as mentioned, I'll try to cut down after approximately a week. This morning I had 3.75 for my first dose instead of 5.

Palladium;1665628 wrote:
“Apart from that, I’m starting to look forward to my doses”—otherwise known as craving. I think you’ve already spotted that you’re currently trading one addiction for another.

Point taken. Am trying to avoid this

Samandkatharine;1665729 wrote:

It's not easy, but I will not be dependant on AL or sleep meds to have a fulfilling life.
Benzos are horrible, destructive meds. Like alcohol, they ruin lives.

Sam

Once again, all I'm trying to do is avoid getting hospitalised like I was last weekend.


Is it likely I would have any chemical dependance after 5-6 days on benzos? Or can my cutting down schedule be more agressive ( say 4x5, 5 days (normal), then 3.75x2 and 5x2 for a day or two, then 2.5 and 3.75, then down to 2 doses a day by the second week?

-EDIT- Or even just cutting to 3.75 x 4 for a few days, then 2.5 for a few days, then 2.5 twice a day, then one, then none? Is this safe? I've had a read through the Ashton manual but it only mentions tapering reigimes for long term use. I was just administered them to avoid seizing from alcohol kindling/withdrawal due to multiple cold turkey detoxes, as mentioned in the OP, and wish to be off them ASAP

[Alien]

Need advice about withdrawal, tapering, meds. LONG POST PLS help (X-post from intro)

Okay, due to the HUGE amount of information I seem to type, here's a TLDR so I can hopefully get some advice.

5mg
Admission to hospital pre-seizure - 1
Day 1 - 1/1/1/1
Day 2 - 1/1/1/1
Day 3 - 1/1/1
Day 4 - 1/1/1/1

3.75mg
Day 5 - 1/1

Is this safe.
Can I prevent addiction to benzos, taking them in total for less than a week and a half.
Is this enough to prevent any seizures from 10 years of 10+ drinks a day, with 10-20 cold turkey withdrawals for 1 week at a time during this period.

Will x-post in "need help" as most of the guidelines I've seen only relate to recreational/long term addiction.

Thanks!

[Alien]

Need advice about withdrawal, tapering, meds. LONG POST PLS help (X-post from intro)

Palladium;1665845 wrote: Hi, Alien

I think I may have misunderstood your original post. I thought you were a long-time user of benzodiazepines. If you have only been using them for a week, then it is unlikely that you are chemically dependent on them.

I would hazard that it would be safe for you to simply stop taking them. There shouldn?t be any need to taper.

I once did a detox in hospital, and I discharged myself five days into the reducing regimen. I was being administered chlordiazepoxide, rather than diazepam, but I was able to go home without having any significant WDS.

If you do have a history of seizures (as I do) then you can become very apprehensive when you stop drinking or using any other type of GABAergic drug. I am well aware of the kindling process, and I know that repeated episodes of withdrawal can cause a chronic change to the seizure threshold.

But a lot of times, it is just psychological. If you are still concerned, however, then I would suggest adopting the four-doses-in-the-day schedule, and reducing by 5mg per day. Although, in your case, I don?t think that it would be necessary.

Excellent advice Palladium, and thank you for your description of your experience.

I am on my 5th day of 5/5/5/5.

I have no history of seisures, and when I was admitted despite my 180/110 bp and 120 HR, they said it was difficult to tell whether it was absolute over exhaustion (3 weeks no sleep) combined with a few recent binges, combined with many cold turkeys that lowered my threshhold and brought me close, however a low loading dose of 5mg brought me back down below hypertension so I think I avoided anything major.

I plan to taper with the 3-4 dose per day regimen, cutting down each dose by 1/3rd to 1/2, and be off them by 10 days if that's possible. I appreciate the guidelines and I plan to just make sure whatever kindling I've done with alcohol I don't repeat with something like this.

I have one more question. Once I actually am off them, will a single 5mg tablet once in a while (once a fortnight/month, to calm nerves/prevent a panic attack) contribute to kindling? Or is it simply too little?

I have always suffered with slight anxiety, but am able to control it most of the time. It's the recent panic attacks that make me concerned. I don't want to go onto antidepressants to control anxiety, as I'm not depressed nor panicky when I'm sober

[neophyte]

Need advice about withdrawal, tapering, meds. LONG POST PLS help (X-post from intro)

Alien,

As long as you don't take benzos daily for more than 2-4 weeks then you will not get a physical dependence. You can pretty much stop cold turkey, but a taper over a few days is better. I had a benzo dependence to xanax 2 years ago. I've had my fair share of addictions, benzos easily top the list of horrors. alcohol and opiates don't even come close.

Also don't fall into the trap of thinking that a maintenance dose of valium can be taken daily. eventually tolerance develops and you experience interdose withdrawals. at that point you have to up the dose or taper off, which takes months to do and months more to recover from.

As to not taking anti depresants, why not? you have no problems taking valium but that is far more dangerous.

I have experienced panic attacks, your story I could relate to. When I had my first panic attack, I thought I was having a heart attack. After a few more of them, I did some research and figured out what they were. They would always happen at night when I was trying to sleep. Everyday when the sun went down a feeling of dread would come over me, I started becoming hyper sensitive to my heart beat and breathing. All these made my anxiety worse, once you start having regular panic attacks, the anxiety feeds on itself making them more frequent. What made my panic attacks go away completely was starting zoloft (an SSRI) 50mg daily. It made my life liveable again.

I wouldn't dismiss them outright, they have a bad reputation with some people but I believe many are misinformed. Have a chat with your doctor about it.

Based on a few things you wrote, I suspect you are a fellow Aussie?

[Alien]

Need advice about withdrawal, tapering, meds. LONG POST PLS help (X-post from intro)

neophyte;1665868 wrote: Alien,

As long as you don't take benzos daily for more than 2-4 weeks then you will not get a physical dependence. You can pretty much stop cold turkey, but a taper over a few days is better.

Hi Neophyte, thanks for your opinion. This is excellent news. I plan to be off them within 2 weeks of starting. I'm already down 40% less than I was taking a couple of days ago. I do like the idea of being able to take one every few weeks though considering I wish to really get a long while of sobriety under my belt.

How risky could this be? Since I've never really suffered from anxiety or panic, the idea that if it crops up once every month or so when I'm sober I could take one would be of great comfort. Of course I'd avoid it like the plague "to feel good".

neophyte;1665868 wrote:
As to not taking anti depresants, why not? you have no problems taking valium but that is far more dangerous.

-snip-, things about panic, which I can really identify with over the last few weeks!

I wouldn't dismiss them outright, they have a bad reputation with some people but I believe many are misinformed. Have a chat with your doctor about it.

I simply would like to avoid them like the plague due to the fact that mentally, without alcohol, despite suffering daily severe pain I still feel the ups of life very strongly, and the downs bring me a bit of balance and grounding. I don't wish for my emotions to be changed, I guess. When I'm sober, I enjoy the ebb and flow, if you get my drift (pun intended :H). Many of my friends who have no dependencies become very un-emotional, and I really enjoy my natural propensity for feeling incredible without them. Off alcohol, despite the fact I miss my nightly best friend, I feel great.

neophyte;1665868 wrote:
Based on a few things you wrote, I suspect you are a fellow Aussie?

I am, I am! I split my time between Melbs, The Capital, and good ol' Syd. Yourself?


Palladium;1665901 wrote: Kindling is caused by repeated episodes of intoxication/withdrawal. It is more likely to occur in drinkers who go through a cycle of prolonged heavy binging, followed by short periods of abstinence, before returning to heavy binging; and having significant AWS each time the binge ends.

If you have had major alcohol withdrawal symptoms in the past (seizures, hallucinations, or the life-threatening delirium tremens) then there is a very real risk that it could happen again: each and every time that it happens, the neurological threshold at which you experience that glutaminergic surge (excitotoxicity) is lowered.

From what I can gather, you haven?t had anything as severe as this in the past; therefore, it would seem unlikely that you have any significant kindling process already.

I'm certain your assessment of this is directly on the button Palladium. The A&E doc suggested that this could be an early warning sign of a first such episode, given my multiple cold turkey withdrawals in the past and my sudden presence of severe withdrawal. Apparently not sleeping for three weeks contributes to such a thing as well

Palladium;1665901 wrote:
I think a lot of what you?re experiencing right now is anxiety and panic. I can empathise.

I definitely am. The cycle is vicious, especially when there are so many contributing factors. It was practically three weeks of hell. I've never really had anything like it. Maybe the odd panic attack 15-20 years ago, and a couple when my chronic pain started about 10 years ago.

blockquote>Palladium;1665901 wrote:
I don?t think that the occasional prn doses of diazepam are going to be useful. It?s more than likely to contribute to a long-term dependence.

-snip-

At the end of the day, you need to approach your doctor about this, and see if you can get a referral to a psychiatrist?GPs very rarely have the expertise to deal with mental health conditions.
I think I might do that. I've seen a psychologist, but when I'm sober after the most recent few weeks, I have no anxiety even without any benzos, no panic, and nothing that makes them want to send me anywhere but home. Chronic pain, extreme binges, cold turkey followed by nightly depedence and intense lack of sleep do funny things to the mind. Once I'm off the benzos I'll see how I go, and if anything returns I'll ask for a referral.

AL is evil. But I still miss it. Thanks so much for all your thoughts and compassion.

:l:thanks:

[Alien]

Need advice about withdrawal, tapering, meds. LONG POST PLS help (X-post from intro)

Hi all, just an update 7 days alcohol free.

Here's a direct link to the post where I've been documenting exactly what I've been doing to try and end up without physical dependance and to avoid getting messed from so many years of consumption of alcohol.

Once again, thank you all for your wonderful advice and support. :goodjob: :thanks:

https://www.mywayout.org/community/f7...ml#post1666523

[Alien]

Need advice about withdrawal, tapering, meds. LONG POST PLS help (X-post from intro)

Hi guys, sorry for the double post. Am hoping someone from the meds forum here might be able to provide some advice to my last post in this thread:

https://www.mywayout.org/community/f7...ml#post1667909

:thanks: