Here we go again

[StuckInCA]

deleted

[spiritwolf333]

Which brings me to something that I've been avoiding posting for a while. For me, trying not to drink, with goals related to limiting or moderating what I drank and when, was akin to a wish and a prayer. The research and science (and many decades of anecdotal evidence) backs that up. If someone is a hard-core-drinker, but not necessarily an alcoholic, then maybe there's a chance they can wish and pray and plan the drinking away. By and large, those people don't end up on the meds threads of MWO.

The people I've met here have the same brain dysfunction that I do, the disease, and it calls for treatment.

The too long, didn't read is this: It is virtually impossible to get well without treating the disease of addiction. Trying to moderate it, or control it, without completely changing everything to focus on that one thing, is like trying to wish or pray it away.

Looking for solutions that are "outside of the box" when one hasn't tried things that are inside doesn't even begin to make sense.

Don't think you're depressed or have anxiety? (Despite an abundance of evidence!) You know how you feel when you take an anti-anxiety medication? That's how life should feel. It's called normal. Just because you can't take the one that you're used to taking doesn't mean that there aren't ones that are effective (more effective) than the one you're occasionally .
Perfect!!

Gabapentin didn't work? How do you know? Did you take it as prescribed or were you expecting the effect you get from Ativan? You don't want to take Nal? Why not? It might not be THE most effective drug, but it dramatically increases your chances of getting well. And perhaps, if you actually enlisted support and treated all of this other stuff you have going on, you would find that your reaction to baclofen was dramatically different. I don't know the answer to that, but I do know that you will never know until you actually make the decision to get well. Still don't think you're depressed/miserable/alcoholic? hmmm. Okay. There aren't any solutions to self-imposed cages, my friend.

I know this is too long, and too obtuse, and really none of my business. Except that these are meds threads, and I'm here to offer support and information based on facts. I can't, in good faith or good conscience, sit quietly reading the same stuff that I know keeps people sick for years and years and years and years and years. Every now and then I have to do what I'm supposed to do, and give feedback and information.

Ne - I truly do hope that others will read this -your post, in its entirety. It can be very valuable to oldies and newbies alike.

As you state -in a way, it is very important for one to understand and decide -for themselves only, if they have reached the point of "no return" -regarding alcohol. In all likelihood, if they have crossed over the moderate to total dependent alcohol line, then there is no returning to alcohol. With this said, I still think that it is/can be very important to a person's brain (at the initial point of recovery) to not hear words such as "quit forever". But Ne, as you state, for those of us who actually lost the mental ability to choose alcohol, a totally new and different life will eventually be required if we are to stop the firewater cycle. This is a hardcore, plain and simple, not easily liked or accepted -Fact (until we do eventually find an alternative) -one must put the plug in the jug. I am thankful that there are now medications to really help us do this.

This is a very-very important statement (by NE) and is very meaningful (imo):
"I can't, in good faith or good conscience, sit quietly reading the same stuff that I know keeps people sick for years and years and years and years and years. Every now and then I have to do what I'm supposed to do, and give feedback and information."
This is not what they refer to as tough love (which is really a oxymoron-ill conceived concept). No, instead, this is a statement of caring and compassion -especially if directed towards a specific individual that you consider a friend(s) and truly want to help that person(s).

Thank you for this post.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Hmmm.

I'm sitting outside under the eaves in the pouring rainb on my mother in law's back porch. It's freezing, by my standards, though I know I have no room to complain given the frigid temps some of you peeps are living in.

I'm going to try not to let my physical circumstances color my responses! Bear w my typing errors, please, I'm on my phone.

Spirit, I disagree with quite a bit of what you wrote. But I'll leave it alone because it doesn't do anybody any good to argue the semantics here. At least right now.

Stuck, I read your post and I'm really glad you wrote it and that I saw it. I have two things in response, and then I'll let it go or respond, as you wish. The first is that it's virtually impossible to know what depression (or addiction) feels like when you're in the middle of it. I would not have known I was depressed if I hadn't had the recent and lasting experience of being well, possibly for the first time in my adult life. It is definitely not for me to say whether or not someone *should*feel better, but it is valid, I think, to point out that someone *could* feel better. Keep in mind I'm not really talking about feelings, but rather a brain chemistry imbalance that colors everything in a slightly skewed light.

Honestly, as I've written a bazillion times, it's not up to me. And maybe that post wasn't what you needed to hear, but will resonate for someone else who does want to hear it. I definitely had to write it.

As I've also written a bazillion times, I still maintain that baclofen is the one and only thing that does what it does. Because that's a fact! Which does not mean that there aren't other viable and effective medications that help restore balanced brain function.



Lis, I knew that I was going to be throwing a big brick wall up here in a time when you are already having a hard time writing. I'm sorry about that. It was just...time for me to get it all out. Do you ever sit on posts that you've written? I do that all the time. I have a dedicated folder filled with volumes of things I've written that don't have an appropriate home. I used to get frustrated about it. Now I think of it as a diary of sorts. Anyway, I wonder how the new dose is treating you. And whether or not you think you're reacting to it differently? Do you think it's part of why it's hard for you to write? I definitely experience discombobulation that manifested itself as increased anxiety/fear when I was titrating up. I hope you're not going through that.

On a much lighter note, I went to the mall yesterday (excellent shopping here!) and was thoroughly discombobulated almost immediately. At first I had country mouse reaction to big city lights. So shiny and sparkly! So many people!! Buy! Buy! Buy! But within about 15 minutes I was like, eek! Too much! Retreat!

Probably doesn't help that our 4 hour trip took 7+ hours and we fought, or sat in resentful silence for the last three. Gotta love family vacations. It happens every time, without fail we find something to get pissy about and then spend the rest of the time trying to recover our equilibrium without having the time or space to talk openly. It would be really great if we could change that paradigm. Whatevs. It's not going to happen this trip.

Enough meandering from me. I'm reading an awful book that I'm almost done with (anyone have any suggestions?) and tons of school reading to do. Moving on to those two tasks.

Hope it's a good day for us all.

Edit: ack! This typing on the phone thing takes skill I don't yet possess. I may need some pointers. What do you use, Lis? Notes?

[spiritwolf333]

[QUOTE=Ne/Neva Eva;1579358]

Spirit, I disagree with quite a bit of what you wrote. But I'll leave it alone because it doesn't do anybody any good to argue the semantics here. At least right now.

Stuck, I read your post and I'm really glad you wrote it and that I saw it. I have two things in response, and then I'll let it go or respond, as you wish. The first is that it's virtually impossible to know what depression (or addiction) feels like when you're in the middle of it. I would not have known I was depressed if I hadn't had the recent and lasting experience of being well, possibly for the first time in my adult life. It is definitely not for me to say whether or not someone *should*feel better, but it is valid, I think, to point out that someone *could* feel better. Keep in mind I'm not really talking about feelings, but rather a brain chemistry imbalance that colors everything in a slightly skewed light.[QUOTE]

Ne -My post was quite simple and I 'thought' that it was thoughtful. You sounded as if you were trying to help a friend and you were willing to do so knowing that there may be some negative feedback. This was my interpretation --and my opinion of your post remains the same; this is a great example of a friend trying to help a friend. I hope others will do the same for others.

[StuckInCA]

Let's not sour the vibe on this thread. All's well. But I'm out for a bit - unrelated, just busy. Have a good holiday everybody.

[dundrinkn]

I have not been a regular poster on MWO, but have been a regular reader here for nearly 2 years now. This is my favorite thread -- lively, real, funny, and not preachy. I find the latest posts to be consistent with the prior tone/intent of the thread. Thanks for keeping it real.

I have done lots of struggling, and experimenting and looking for "out of the box" solutions myself. I have tried oxcytocin and found it incredibly underwhelming. Tried Topamax, NAL, Gabapentin, and BAC. I've had some success on all, but BAC is where I've found freedom. I will say, that if I drink on BAC with any regularity, I get back into the anxiety/drinking mode. I can pull out of the downward spiral, but only with abstinence. And it sucks for a good month. But if I just use the tools I've learned from past experience (and pop the occasional valium), and keep putting together AF days, I find that after 30 days or so, I no longer have any real anxiety/cravings.

I am at 80mg of BAC a day and haven't had anything to drink since Mid October. In a few months, I will again drink a beer or 2 on occasion, because that's what freedom means to me. A choice. And if I slip back down the slope, I will do what I know works for me. Hope everyone rejoins the conversation soon cuz I really would rather not post. But felt compelled to thank you all for putting it out there.

[spiritwolf333]

Hi Stuck -have a great Thanksgiving. Your response to Ne in your post (erased) was informative and I am sorry that it is no longer available. But, as you say -"don't sour the vibe".

[Lostinspace]

Yeah Ne, I type out all my posts in Notes first, then copy and paste them here. I’m not sure how you managed to type out as much as you did without this site timing out on you. You must be a much faster thumb typer than I am. That’s interesting that you dictate, guapo. Is that an app you downloaded, or did come with your phone?

And Ne, unfortunately I haven’t noticed any difference with the new dose. I know my increased anxiety is due to certain stresses in my life at the moment, rather than any side effect. I know how I react to stress and uncertainty, and my recent surge of panic attacks, self-doubt, and anxiety in general, is just par for the course. Sigh. I really will learn how to be a competent human being at some point in my life.

Anyway, I hope you’re enjoying the trip now after the not so pleasant drive there, and the overwhelmingly large mall.

Stuck - I hope you’re enjoying the start of your long weekend, as busy as it is. And yeah, your girlfriend does sound pretty awesome, finding free tickets, and always seeming to know about everything going on in the city.

Hi kronk. I’ve been thinking about you recently and wondering where you had gone. It’s good to see you.

Hey dundrinkn. I’m glad you like it here I definitely understand not wanting to post. I go through phases of being afraid to post for any number of reasons. And I appreciate your relating your own experience. I really should follow suit and just force some AF time. Maybe that’s all I need to get back to a better place, with bac working again.

Anyway, I’m home for a much needed long weekend. I didn’t drink tonight. To be honest, I did buy some “just in case of emergency” vodka and bourbon, but I have no desire for it at all right now, and I doubt I will. Well that’s about all I got tonight. I hope you guys have a great night!

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Good morning and happy thanksgiving!



Some of you might know that I don't celebrate holidays on here as a matter of practice. We're too international, but also holidays can be really fraught for so many of us. My one exception is thanksgiving. It's a really idea that I wish I carried with me daily. Family! Friends! Gratitude!



I'm really grateful for you guys and this space. (Shout out to Roberta Jewell et. al. For keeping this forum running.) Grateful that I can mess up, not be my best self or simply post silliness and still find people who can accept and value me. I'm awed by the kindness exhibited here. It restores my faith in humanity.

Thank you for your post, spirit. It was thoughtful and kind and spot on. I apologize for my knee jerk negative reaction. Thanks, stuck, for keeping the vibe. And it being my friend here and in 3D. Thanks, dun drinking for your post and nice comments. Lis, I'm so glad you posted and grateful that you're still plugging along, putting up with me and us and overcoming a very natural inclination to avoid sharing tough things. I'm especially grateful for you and others who who have shared this journey. It keeps it real.

I could go on for an entire page or two, with very legitimate, heartfelt gratitude. I'll spare you all the details. But I have to mention Evan, for pushing me hard to get to the goal. And Terryk, who is still a most valued and valuable confidant and resource. And of course, Olivier Ameisen for writing the book the library for stocking it against all odds. And Fred Levin for helping us even though it cost him his license.



Thanks. Much love.



I'm having a great time with my family. Maybe our best visit and thanksgiving ever! It certainly feels momentous for some reason. Interesting tidbit: my mother in law is dating a guy we all really like. He is many, many decades sober in AA! He's celebrating an anniversary on Saturday with his home group. I think it's 40 years. They are both in their 70s!! So a sober toast to, and real gratitude for, our ability to change our lives, find love and share it at any age, under many circumstances.

[StuckInCA]

Thankful indeed. Happy holiday to those in the US, happy Thursday to everybody else.

[Lostinspace]

That was a beautiful post, Ne. Thank you. I'm glad you're having such a good time with your family

I don't have much else to say. I'm sorry. I hope you all have a great night!

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Tried to post from my kindle and the wifi died. Phone charge is low. It's amazing how much I use and rely on easy access to Internet. This vaca has been a hiatus from my normal 24-7 online habit. Like camping! But in the 'burbs and w a bed.



Heading home today, w several stops to pick up more stuff from my parents. (I neglected to mention we're driving a 15 year old Chevy truck w 200,000++ miles on it, towing a trailer, and filling it all up for the trip home. More Sanford and Sons shenanigans. It's going to be a long day, but the promise of my own bed/space/Internet is a big reward.)



That's all I've got. See you guys tomorrow morning.

[spiritwolf333]

[QUOTE=spiritwolf333;1579406][QUOTE=Ne/Neva Eva;1579358]

Spirit, I disagree with quite a bit of what you wrote. But I'll leave it alone because it doesn't do anybody any good to argue the semantics here. At least right now.

Stuck, I read your post and I'm really glad you wrote it and that I saw it. I have two things in response, and then I'll let it go or respond, as you wish. The first is that it's virtually impossible to know what depression (or addiction) feels like when you're in the middle of it. I would not have known I was depressed if I hadn't had the recent and lasting experience of being well, possibly for the first time in my adult life. It is definitely not for me to say whether or not someone *should*feel better, but it is valid, I think, to point out that someone *could* feel better. Keep in mind I'm not really talking about feelings, but rather a brain chemistry imbalance that colors everything in a slightly skewed light.

Ne -My post was quite simple and I 'thought' that it was thoughtful. You sounded as if you were trying to help a friend and you were willing to do so knowing that there may be some negative feedback. This was my interpretation --and my opinion of your post remains the same; this is a great example of a friend trying to help a friend. I hope others will do the same for others.

[Lostinspace]

I hope you had a good trip back, Ne. Not much to say today. I drank again, like last night. And I got the intoxalock installed on my car this morning - it’s so big and conspicuous. I’m trying to think of what I can put over top of it, and how, to cover it up when I’m in parking lots. Even then, I can only cover up the breathalyzer unit itself. There’s nothing I can do to hide the camera hanging from my windshield, which takes a picture of me every time I blow. I’m so ashamed of this. Anyway, I hope you all have a great night!

[StuckInCA]

Meh. Not a whole lot going on, huh? Things sure quieted down around/after the holiday. Maybe everyone is still in a turkey-coma? Damned triptophan. Did I spell that right? Whatever.

Not much to say here, either. Friend still in town until tomorrow morning. I have to go to the library for a bunch of things tomorrow. Been writing, drinking, etc.

Good times. Hope everybody's having a good weekend.