Indifference

[tee111]

Indifference

Total abstinence is my goal but I'm not gonna start preaching to folks who god forbid might want to have the odd tipple in the foreseeable future.

[Xadrian]

Indifference

When I started baclofen, total abstinence was my goal, because I didn't believe it would be possible to take a drink now and then, without relapsing.

Now I know it is possible and total abstinence isn't my goal anymore, because it's not necessary.

[Lostinspace]

Indifference

My goal at this point is to move towards total abstinence, because much like Xadrian said (BEFORE he reached indifference), I find it very difficult to imagine continuing to drink without having a full-blown relapse. As much as my current bac dosage has reduced my cravings, and allowed me to drop my drinking to a mere fraction of what it was, I am not indifferent yet and am still relying on some good old-fashioned will power to keep my drinking under control.

Once I reach my switch, and stay there for a good period of time, I may very well change my mind. I do enjoy the taste of certain alcoholic beverages, so in theory I could understand wanting to have just one or two at a social event or some special occasion. At the moment, though, it's hard for me to wrap my head around the idea of why someone would drink just one. So, abstinence for now, and only time will tell if I ever come to change my mind. I'll take Reggie's suggestion and "go with the flow."

[guapo]

Indifference

Well, it's good to know what people are thinking. Sticking to rules, plans, ultimatums, counting, days sober, etc. etc. strikes me as pretty draconian. Sounds like some definite success stories, and that's good news for everybody!

[Eber]

Indifference

I brought up indifference on another thread that spirit responded to, and it's related to this.

I think the definition of indifference is pretty clear. Being able to be around it, maybe even make the decision to have or not have a drink, but without the dependent part of the brain taking over and making the decision for you. That is what I hope to achieve, not because I necessarily want to drink, and certainly not as I was before, but because I want to be free to actually make that choice, not enslaved to cravings that I can't control. Seems pretty simple to me!

I have no interest in debating what makes a person a true "alcoholic," and I'm not sure I believe that is a valid term anyway. Alcohol abuse and dependence are very clear terms, and the ones used in the DSM. Alcoholism is a loaded term which brings many other ideas to the table, including the disease model, the idea that it's a life-long, irreversible condition, the notion that it's an "allergy" and we were predestined for the condition from birth a'la AA, etc. Maybe let's just stop using that word altogether!

I was with my girlfriend in a couples counseling session in a rehab program heavily based in the 12-step model, and she brought up her father's experience of battling addictions, including alcohol. He was abstinent for many years, and today will occasionally have a drink but is very careful. The therapist's response, that he was never "really" an alcoholic if he could, 30 years later, enjoy a glass of wine with dinner, was I think offensive to both of us and belittled his experience, which was very real. This adherence to non-scientifically based philosophies closes off discussion and discounts experiences of people if they do not fit those religiously-adhered-to definitions.

And that stint in rehab did not take. I'm lucky to be making, for the first time, very real progress with Baclofen and therapy.

[Eber]

Indifference

Let me add that re-reading spiritwolf's original post, he gives the dictionary definition of indifference and then a completely different personal definition, which makes me wonder if in fact he's ever achieved it?

[guapo]

Indifference

Labeling myself or others as alcoholics is counterproductive. The term is horribly negative,
The notion of alcoholism, has only one set of rules, and that is as we know, abstinence, and a life of struggling through each and every single GD day.

Viewing many threads here, and of those on a moderation management arena, it is clear that the primary goal of all is to get things under control regarding drinking.

Some embrace moderation and are able to achieve indifference, others simply can't, and realize abstinence is the only way to deal with the problem.

Most of those higher up in this forum, are absolutely 100% convinced that any drinking is completely out of the question.

The only way to really know would be to attempt to achieve indifference, and if it occurs, great !! some experts believe that many heavy drinkers, achieve good results by just toning down their drinking and moving on.

The more effort I have put into learning about this, the more I have learned what is right for me, and for that I am very glad. No solution is going to be right for everybody.

[Lostinspace]

Indifference

Eber;1682277 wrote: I have no interest in debating what makes a person a true "alcoholic," and I'm not sure I believe that is a valid term anyway. Alcohol abuse and dependence are very clear terms, and the ones used in the DSM. Alcoholism is a loaded term which brings many other ideas to the table, including the disease model, the idea that it's a life-long, irreversible condition, the notion that it's an "allergy" and we were predestined for the condition from birth a'la AA, etc. Maybe let's just stop using that word altogether!

I couldn't agree more Eber! And, I think the vast majority of us are in agreement about what indifference means. I also have to agree with tee on another point. I may have only been a member here for about a month, but I've been lurking for almost a year, and I too have witnessed a drastic change in the content of a certain person's posts, from that of a helpful contributor, to a tireless crusader for abstinence only. I truly hope it stops soon. I would hate to see this community dwindle and fall apart any more than it already has during the time I've been watching it.

OK, that's enough out of me. I should probably go back to working now, considering I'm already at work. :H

[kronkcarr]

Indifference

Eber I also couldn't agree more and LIS this is the reason that I don't post much anymore. guapo if you're referring to the senior designation when you mention those who've been here a long time it only designates those who have posted a certain number of posts.

I like the sharing of what each of us has done and what's worked and what hasn't.

[spiritwolf333]

Indifference

In my opinion, these have all been enlightening comments. Primarily, I read posts from those who choose to continue to drink at a controlled levels of intake. To some degree, alcohol still helps some to enjoy or accept life better. These that do intake alcohol to briefly change the way that they feel or think for a few moments are to be commended -especially if they were true alcoholics before.

Each of you can throw up your hands in celebration and slap each other on the back in exuberant celebration of not having to feel the physical or mental craving of alcohol the next day. Baclofen, for those of you who do take, certainly play a major part of victory. With Baclofen, we can even move past the stress of a girlfriend moving into our apartment and still not feel the physical or mental need to drink -though we think it would surly help.

Let's now take for a minute the alcoholic who suffers from a state of mind and body who believes that tomorrow's death would be better than living another day in this state of being. No, we are not talking about the person who drinks a bottle of wine at night and says things she/he regrets having said the day. No, we are talking about the person who arises in the morning only in dire hopes of finding an alcoholic drink to carry him/her through the next hour.

Does the word indifference mean a damn thing to one who is throws of an alcoholic death? In my opinion, no.

At some point in life, one becomes indifferent to alcohol, baclofen or not. Alcohol is always viewed as a choice to change the way that one perceives life to be or not be. A pill does not change this -it only makes it easier to overcome the effects of alcohol.

So, to those of you who continue to choose to use alcohol to change the way the way that you feel or think about your life, then the more power to you. Otherwise, put these words in your pipe and smoke them. Alcohol rules your life until you no longer ingest. This is my experience and the experience of many others.

Until you stop drinking alcohol to change the way that you feel or think, then you remain a victim of the perversion of alcohol. But of course, many of you already know this.

[kronkcarr]

Indifference

hi spirit. I know that you've separated people into "true alcoholics" and those that didn't drink that much but I still would like to comment. Please bear with me as my "quote message in reply" isn't working.

spirit posted:

Primarily, I read posts from those who choose to continue to drink at a controlled levels of intake. To some degree, alcohol still helps some to enjoy or accept life better. These that do intake alcohol to briefly change the way that they feel or think for a few momentsare to be commended -especially if they were true alcoholics before.

You posted your definition of indifference and I reposted it as my same definition. For me this means that I don't drink controlled levels of alcohol nor do I drink to change the way I feel or think or to better enjoy life.

You posted:

Each of you can throw up your hands in celebration and slap each other on the back in exuberant celebration of not having to feel the physical or mental craving of alcohol the next day.


With indifference I'm not celebrating and feeling exuberant about drinking alcohol. Sometimes I just do it. Indifference for me makes alcohol neither here nor there. I thought that indifference for others meant that if they drank they didn't physically or mentally crave alcohol the next day.

You posted:


Let's now take for a minute the alcoholic who suffers from a state of mind and body who believes that tomorrow's death would be better than living another day in this state of being. No, we are not talking about the person who drinks a bottle of wine at night and says things she/he regrets having said the day. No, we are talking about the person who arises in the morning only in dire hopes of finding an alcoholic drink to carry him/her through the next hour.

Does the word indifference mean a damn thing to one who is throws (sic) of an alcoholic death? In my opinion, no.

Are you speaking from experience? It's hard for me to tell when you speak in terms of "the alcoholic". If so please help me to understand how you feel everyday. I'd asked you if you were indifferent or if you'd reached your switch. I don't think you've answered. Hearing how it is for you will help me to understand where you're coming from.

You posted:

At some point in life, one becomes indifferent to alcohol, baclofen or not. Alcohol is always viewed as a choice to change the way that one perceives life to be or not be. A pill does not change this -it only makes it easier to overcome the effects of alcohol.

I disagree that alcohol is always viewed as a choice to change the way one perceives life to be or not be. When I became indifferent I didn't view alcohol as anything.

You posted:

So, to those of you who continue to choose to use alcohol to change the way the way that you feel or think about your life, then the more power to you. Otherwise, put these words in your pipe and smoke them. Alcohol rules your life until you no longer ingest. This is my experience and the experience of many others.

I wish you would post about your experience with alcohol ruling your life so that I can better understand and others can better understand and help you get to a place where you can let go of the hold that alcohol has on you. This seems important for an alcohol free life.

Until you stop drinking alcohol to change the way that you feel or think, then you remain a victim of the perversion of alcoholl. But of course, many of you already know this.


I wonder if you are writing about yourself here instead of "you". If not I feel you've made a large assumption about those of us who continue to drink in a healthy and accepted manner often below the daily guidelines. It's been my impression from posts of successful baclofen takers that we no longer see ourselves as the vicitims of alcohol.

Help me out here. Tell me what's going on with you.

[spiritwolf333]

Indifference

Thanks Kronk. I do appreciate your respectful responses.

Kronk, everyday when you taken your baclofen dosage, what thought enters your mind? I will accept and appreciate any answer.

[Lostinspace]

Indifference

Let's just stop this thread in its tracks, shall we? I understand why spirit feels so strongly about this, but . . . You know, I've already been diagnosed a "late-stage alcoholic." Besides the hideous withdrawal I've suffered in the past, my last full medical exam showed that my liver enzymes were through the roof, my kidneys weren't functioning properly, and that my pancreas was so inflamed that I was weeks away from developing full-blown pancreatitis. If I had continued on the way I had been, there's no chance in hell I would have lived to see my 40th birthday (which is still four years away).

BUT, there is no reason to scare people away with all this (reminiscent of AA) talk. Baclofen has already worked miracles for me. No, I'm not yet indifferent, and need to go up in dose once again, but I'm only drinking a small fraction of what I used to! That for me is proof enough that this stuff works!

EDIT: Sorry to get all fired up, but this all-or-nothing thinking is what scared me away from seriously trying to improve my life for many years. There actually is a "softer, gentler way." The Big Book denies this. But, guess what else? It was written in the 19-freaking-30s. We know better now. Let's use that knowledge.

[kronkcarr]

Indifference

spirit when I take my bac in the morning along with my vitamin, Omega 3 and Chloroxygen I think, "Thank goodness I remembered to take these today." Now please answer my questions.

[spiritwolf333]

Indifference

Fred_The_Cat;1681549 wrote: Spirit,

I've never claimed to be alcohol free. There is a wonderful thing called LIFE to be enjoyed when you put alcoholic terror behind you. I've figured out that drinking 2-3 times a week is a happy enough balance with everything else.

I don't owe abstinence to anyone.

Why do religious zealots, whether they identify themselves as such or not, have this compulsive urge to impose on others?

StuckinLA;1681556 wrote: BECAUSE THEIRS IS THE ONE TRUE WAY!

Fred_The_Cat;1681569 wrote: Damn Spirit, you remind me of the way religious nutcases view birth control. Despite solving a heinous problem to women and society at large, solving a problem with a pill gives them one less stick to beat people with and that sends them into a tizzy.

Fred and Stuck -I admire your and appreciate your views regarding alcohol being part of your life -that need to have access to the chemical to make you feel ok or happy hits home -big time. Can you imagine a life where alcohol is not even part of a living experience? In fact, can you imagine living a life where alcohol would actually being a total takeaway from your life? Perhaps there are too many of us that can not imagine life without alcohol -and this sucks.