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**Alky** · July 10, 2014, 06:52 PM

Indifference

Spirit, I am in complete agreement with you, but we are clearly in the minority in the forum, so this will probably be my last post in this meds forum at least for a long while.

There is a lack of understanding, in my opinion, of the progressive nature of alcoholism. Even after having been on baclofen a year, and reaching indifference, I continued to drink alcoholically through the indifference and lost the switch. Thankfully, I have a wonderful addiction psychiatrist who has been tweaking my dosage and I am stabilizing back towards indifference once again. The last six months of that period of hard drinking, my drinking behaviors became increasingly dangerous and finally landed me in detox. I hit my rock bottom when I nearly lost my driver license. It wasn't over a DUI, but I'd rather not go into the details here. I was finally forced to confront a real consequence. I was in danger of losing a privilege many of us take for granted. All while taking those white pills that are supposedly a magical cure for alcoholism.

I am not a die hard AAer, even though I do have a sponsor and try my best to diligently work the steps as time permits. Many people here cannot see the insanity of taking 2-300mg, or more, of baclofen a day and still indulging their addiction (related to step two). The disease will progress in those who continue to drink alcoholically, with or without baclofen.

**StuckinLA** · July 10, 2014, 07:12 PM

Indifference

Oh for fuck's sake.

Alky, thank you for the post and please feel free to continue posting in meds if you find it helpful. I for one am 1) not in charge here by any means

and 2) see no problem with real, heartfelt and thoughtful discussion about what it means to moderate, or the choice to abstain, or whatever. My issue is only with the way Spirit has somehow managed to wrap a horse in a bible and continues to beat it to smithereens.

**Lostinspace** · July 10, 2014, 07:23 PM

Indifference

Spirit, I understand the point you're trying to drive home, but I think it's unnecessary. When "old-timers" talk about having a glass or two of wine every couple of months, that's very different from someone who thinks that baclofen will allow them to control their drinking. Anyone who holds onto the idea that baclofen will allow them to drink as they wish is thinking more along the lines of "well, I'll drink x amount each day and that will be it." Honestly, as someone who hasn't yet reached indifference, I find no appeal in the idea of having a glass of wine with dinner. Who would ever want a single drink?! These stories don't steer newcomers down the wrong path. If anything, it's enlightening to see that someone could care so little about alcohol that they would have only one or two (!) drinks. I plan on becoming AF, but whatever someone's particular journey is, I think these testaments are a strong statement as to how needless AL is once you reach indifference. They only help people who want to rid their lives of AL.

EDIT: Just realizing that I'm responding to the message in a few different posts at once, not necessarily just this one in particular. Please feel free to ignore me.

**spiritwolf333** · July 10, 2014, 07:39 PM

Indifference

StuckinLA;1681211 wrote: Oh for fuck's sake.

Alky, thank you for the post and please feel free to continue posting in meds if you find it helpful. I for one am 1) not in charge here by any means

and 2) see no problem with real, heartfelt and thoughtful discussion about what it means to moderate, or the choice to abstain, or whatever. My issue is only with the way Spirit has somehow managed to wrap a horse in a bible and continues to beat it to smithereens.

Stuck -your posts generally speak for themselves. How is sobriety treating you these days?

Your choice to continue to drink and offer advice on not drinking is your choice. I respect your choice. I respect the fact that you continue to try and help people that truly are trying to quit. What I do not respect is your animosity towards those of us who truly do no how great it is to be free from the chains.

Stuck, have you ever once considered what your real purpose is to be on a site that tries to help people become free from alcohol?

Don't you realize how helpful you really could be if you let people know that you are still in the throws of a deadly disease and how it so dramatically upsets your life? This is not a judgment of you Stuck. This is a recognition of the power that you still have left to really help others and help your self at the same time.

Stuck, you can keep calling me all the things that you want to -I will survive. But what about you? Of course I will never be anything to you but an arsehole. But you; you have a real chance to influence people and make a huge difference in their lives. As you told me before, just look at your at how many hits your thread has. How long must you feel the need to keep telling them to drink and someday they will be just like you?

Just a thought and an opinion.

**spiritwolf333** · July 10, 2014, 07:54 PM

Indifference

Lostinspace;1681216 wrote: Spirit, I understand the point you're trying to drive home, but I think it's unnecessary. When "old-timers" talk about having a glass or two of wine every couple of months, that's very different from someone who thinks that baclofen will allow them to control their drinking. Anyone who holds onto the idea that baclofen will allow them to drink as they wish is thinking more along the lines of "well, I'll drink x amount each day and that will be it." Honestly, as someone who hasn't yet reached indifference, I find no appeal in the idea of having a glass of wine with dinner. Who would ever want a single drink?! These stories don't steer newcomers down the wrong path. If anything, it's enlightening to see that someone could care so little about alcohol that they would have only one or two (!) drinks. I plan on becoming AF, but whatever someone's particular journey is, I think these testaments are a strong statement as to how needless AL is once you reach indifference. They only help people who want to rid their lives of AL.

EDIT: Just realizing that I'm responding to the message in a few different posts at once, not necessarily just this one in particular. Please feel free to ignore me.

Hey Lost -thanks for the post. As you will continue to see, there are 7 or 8 people who continue to post about moderation, etc. They speak of their continued drinking and the choice that they now have to drink or not drink. Most alcoholics will always try to find away to drink -without other forms of outside help and due diligence.

My only and main point is this; one can outdrink their medical cure. If you are an alcoholic, just please realize that this is a distinct possibility.

If one is just beginning their journey to become alcohol free, please ignore the conversations of drinking while trying to find the medical answer.

**spiritwolf333** · July 10, 2014, 08:00 PM

Indifference

Alky;1681209 wrote: Spirit, I am in complete agreement with you, but we are clearly in the minority in the forum, so this will probably be my last post in this meds forum at least for a long while.

There is a lack of understanding, in my opinion, of the progressive nature of alcoholism. Even after having been on baclofen a year, and reaching indifference, I continued to drink alcoholically through the indifference and lost the switch. Thankfully, I have a wonderful addiction psychiatrist who has been tweaking my dosage and I am stabilizing back towards indifference once again. The last six months of that period of hard drinking, my drinking behaviors became increasingly dangerous and finally landed me in detox. I hit my rock bottom when I nearly lost my driver license. It wasn't over a DUI, but I'd rather not go into the details here. I was finally forced to confront a real consequence. I was in danger of losing a privilege many of us take for granted. All while taking those white pills that are supposedly a magical cure for alcoholism.

I am not a die hard AAer, even though I do have a sponsor and try my best to diligently work the steps as time permits. Many people here cannot see the insanity of taking 2-300mg, or more, of baclofen a day and still indulging their addiction (related to step two). The disease will progress in those who continue to drink alcoholically, with or without baclofen.

Hi Alky -thanks for your comments. You drive home the point that I stand by; one can outdrink the medical cure. Some might even ask; why? If you have the choice to stop after one or two, why would you keep drinking? Only if you are an alcoholic (or former), will you be able to answer this question.

Until one accepts the fact that the power of alcohol is much stronger than their brain's ability to understand, will one be able to get real help. AA helps millions of people. I am not an active member but I do know the perception of power they offer.

**kronkcarr** · July 10, 2014, 08:27 PM

Indifference

spirit,

You say:

It's possibly true that some of us can have a drink or two and no longer be interested.

I have posted about my experience with this. If I post it it's true for me. I post my experience in case someone is interested in it.

You post:

This myth is propogated on this site.

For me this is not a myth. It's what has happened and continues to happen for me on baclofen. StuckinLA (who you've trashed a few times here), Ne, bleep and others post how it has gone for them--their ups, downs, struggles and joys. I appreciate their real posts and see no reason to make them feel less for being human and sharing.

You post:

The dream of every real alcoholic is to be able to take a pill and the need to drink disappear and to no longer be a factor.

This may be a starting point for many of us but others may start with this dream and may come to realize there's a better life where they are indifferent--where alcohol is not an ongoing factor in their choices and their lives.

I'll take your word for it that you're a "true alcoholic" while I'm (as you've accused) JUST alcohol dependent because I ONLY drank a bottle of wine a night. You've read the destruction that alcohol and I brought to my life. Do you really believe there's a distinction?

**Alky** · July 10, 2014, 10:08 PM

Indifference

Kronk, with all due respect, you were consuming less than 10 units of alcohol per night. I'm not dismissive of the negative and painful personal consequences you undoubtedly suffered because of drinking, but there is a big difference in the biological damage (particularly to the brain) wrought by a bottle of wine a night versus, let's say the entire fifth of 80 proof spirits I'd pack away on a day when I'd get started in the morning. I bring this up because there is a newcomer to this forum who, by his own admission is continuing to drink 20 units per nights while simultaneously taking 100mg of bac a day. I know we don't typically use units on this side of the pond, but that's roughly 2/3 of a fifth of 80 proof spirits, or the equivalent thereof. However bleep et. al. thinks he's doing just peachy and that he's on the right track and that spirit and I are completely full of shit. Again, step two comes back to mind. That's just insanity.

I've heard people on this forum criticize a certain element of AA for living in fear of alcohol. I agree that is unnecessary and possibly counterproductive. But there's a certain element of this forum that to me, seems to live in fear of abstinence. That seems equally ridiculous. A true moderate drinker does not fear periods of abstinence.

**tee111** · July 11, 2014, 12:47 AM

Indifference

I'm shooting for abstinence but I'm not going to live in fear of not being able to have a beer on a summers day if I'm handed one. This "true alcoholic" shit is getting boring. I started posting on here around the same time as you spirit last year (old user name) but the transformation in your posting has been really quite drastic. You've really staying to take the high ground in you posts. It could look like you treating a new user like a child if they just started out on here.

The proof is out there. Look over on the French forum. Hardly anyone when AF on the way up.

What's wrong with having a drink now and then once you've beat things?

AA speak it seems is really starting to creep into some posts. Thank fuck I never attending a meeting.

**tee111** · July 11, 2014, 12:54 AM

Indifference

Alky;1681253 wrote: Kronk, with all due respect, you were consuming less than 10 units of alcohol per night. I'm not dismissive of the negative and painful personal consequences you undoubtedly suffered because of drinking, but there is a big difference in the biological damage (particularly to the brain) wrought by a bottle of wine a night versus, let's say the entire fifth of 80 proof spirits I'd pack away on a day when I'd get started in the morning. I bring this up because there is a newcomer to this forum who, by his own admission is continuing to drink 20 units per nights while simultaneously taking 100mg of bac a day. I know we don't typically use units on this side of the pond, but that's roughly 2/3 of a fifth of 80 proof spirits, or the equivalent thereof. However bleep et. al. thinks he's doing just peachy and that he's on the right track and that spirit and I are completely full of shit. Again, step two comes back to mind. That's just insanity.

I've heard people on this forum criticize a certain element of AA for living in fear of alcohol. I agree that is unnecessary and possibly counterproductive. But there's a certain element of this forum that to me, seems to live in fear of abstinence. That seems equally ridiculous. A true moderate drinker does not fear periods of abstinence.

Alky.. Ameisen drank a bottle a day all the way up.. Numerous posters on here did the same. 100s on the French forum did the same.

Maybe your not a " true alcoholic" if you can stop for a while to start on baclofen?

I'm sorry but some of these comments are just wrong.

**tee111** · July 11, 2014, 01:18 AM

Indifference

spiritwolf333;168122 wrote: As you will continue to see, there are 7 or 8 people who continue to post about moderation, etc.

I'm surprised there's even 7 or 8 posters even left on this forum.

**bleep** · July 11, 2014, 02:02 AM

Indifference

StuckinLA;1681211 wrote: Oh for fuck's sake.

Quoted for emphasis.

What is this "true alcoholic" nonsense? Anyone spending their free time perusing a website devoted to stopping drinking drinking has in my book gone far enough down the road to call themselves an alcoholic. Nobody has the right to diminish someones struggle because theirs seems tougher, and to imply that is downright fucking rude, no matter how much anyone says "with respect, but..." In fact, I find any time someone says that they tend to imply the exact opposite. The damage wrought by alcohol is not at issue here, it is the difficulty in stopping that we are trying to address.

This sort of conversation is highly insulting to those that are singled out as if their success is somehow tainted because their problems don't stack up in your eyes.

This is the advice I would give to someone, and why:

Baclofen titration is a difficult thing to do. Stopping drinking without baclofen is a difficult thing to do. Combining two difficult things to do at the same time seems to me to be a foolish endeavour, especially in light of the fact that the first difficult thing, when successfully completed, renders the second difficult thing unnecessary. There is no reason to white-knuckle yourself to death on the way up, because if baclofen works for you, in a very short space of time you will no longer feel compelled to drink yourself to death. Just do one difficult thing at a time, in other words.

It is for this reason that I would advise someone who is beginning their titration, or is halfway through it, to not bother changing their drinking habits there and then. It has nothing to do with whether their goal is moderation or abstinence. The same advice applies to both sets of people.

This advice is not mine, it was given to me when I joined the forum, and it worked very well for me. It is for this reason that it is the advice that I give anyone else when they ask. Funnily enough, it is the same advice handed out on the French forum as well. The French forum has been going for quite a while and has built up considerable support and success using this approach.

Why do you think that is?

**Xadrian** · July 11, 2014, 07:20 AM

Indifference

My thoughts about the "true alcoholic" crap:

Being alcoholic is defined by the fact that someone can not leave the alcohol alone at free will.
The Dutch word for addiction is literally translated by "being slaved" and that's exacly what it is: being a slave to the alcohol.
The alcohol is in control of you and not the other way around.

Being a "true alcoholic" is not defined by the amount of alcohol one drinks or for how many years, but only by the sole fact that one is not able to stay away from the alcohol without help.
It's a disease. Once you have the disease, you're a "true alcoholic".
You wouldn't say to someone "Hey, you got only one tumor, so you're not a real cancer patient, but I am, because I have six tumors, so I'm sicker than you", would you?

Moreover, being a "true alcoholic" is nothing to pursue or to be proud of. So if anybody tells me he's an alcoholic, I believe him without questioning.
It's difficult enough to admit it to yourself, let alone to others.

So, I would ask you, can we get over with the stupid "true alcoholic" discussion and try to make more constructive contributions to this forum?

**Ne/Neva Eva** · July 11, 2014, 07:30 AM

Indifference

*sigh*

Spirit, I can't believe you've started yet another thread to say the exact same thing.

You have been drunk 5 times in the last year. (More than I have!)
You did not, and do not, do counseling or attend AA or even exercise regularly. In fact, all you've done to get sober is to take baclofen. That's it. Why do you keep insisting that people do it differently than you did? Why do you keep insisting that baclofen doesn't work?

Add to it that you insist that people will have fewer side effects if they are sober when they titrate up, but you were sober when you titrated up and you had side effects.

It's bizarre.

As to all the rest, here are the threads in which we have had this discussion repeatedly. I don't see any need to continue with the same old stuff.

https://www.mywayout.org/community/f2...ake-92713.html

https://www.mywayout.org/community/f2...nts-77087.html

My personal favorite, since it's contrary to everything you've done and you contradict yourself several times:

https://www.mywayout.org/community/f2...ion-90479.html

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