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**Lostinspace** · July 17, 2014, 06:11 PM

As for the switch....

Hi zampa. I'm not a long-timer by any stretch. It definitely sounds like you're getting closer, but are not yet indifferent.

All I can share is what bac has done for me so far. I used to drink around one and half liters of liquor (vodka and/or bourbon a day). Now, at 120 mg (granted the dose is much different for everyone), I'm only drinking about a quarter of what I used to! Yes, I still dive into what I buy like a rabid bear, but I find I don't miss not having more. I only buy small amounts.

I should also mention that I "white-knuckled" it for a while as I was titrating up. I felt it necessary (because of my particular life circumstances) to taper off drinking right away. This is not necessary, but for me it was. I don't know if this is relevant or not.

And, miraculously, I don't think about it first thing when I wake up. I used to barely even sleep. I drank throughout the night. I would nod off for a couple hours, then have my first few shots of the day as soon as I got out of bed. Now the only thing on my mind when my alarm goes off is "dammit I have to face another day at that stupid job."

I'm sorry if that doesn't sound hopeful. It really is. And my negativity stems only from the fact that I need to get a new job ASAP. But really, it sounds like you're on the right course. Stick with it! If you're feeling less compulsion to dive into that first drink - that's the beginning of the bac miracle! Keep going. And let us know how you're doing.

**Calikime** · July 18, 2014, 12:42 AM

As for the switch....

Your story is a lot like mine was. Even your comment about "the last hope". I think that keeping that in my mind was what helped me to forge ahead through all the SE's. I had already tried Topamax and Naltrexone, both of which didn't work for me unfortunately, so I really did feel baclofen was my "last hope". On top of what you had, I had this incredible sensitivity to sudden noises, the dryness in the back of throat would cause me to suddenly need to drink some water - NOW or I would go into a coughing fit, ringing in my ears, the extreme tiredness, but the inability to have a good nights sleep. I also lost weight and wasn't really interested in eating. I felt like quitting so many times but I kept at it until I hit 140 mgs. I was still drinking while I was titrating up. There were a few times where I could definitely stop after a couple of drinks. But after getting to 140 I decided to stop drinking and see how I felt. That made a big difference for me and I was able to string many days and weeks where I wasn't drinking and I KNEW I was indifferent. I then started to lower my dose, making sure that my indifference was still intact. I didn't stop drinking entirely while I was lowering the dose, but I did during that period where I just told myself I was going to give wine a break and let baclofen do it's thing. I have been at 60 mgs now for about a month and am trying 50 mgs to see how I do on that. I am sure that I drank past my switch dose because I was still drinking.

Like you, I still have the habit to contend with. The indifference helps tremendously but the habit part is going to take more time to really go away. I have so many connections with it during my 30 yr. stint with drinking wine every night. I was afraid too. One thing I did was really try to come up with things that you can do in the evenings. I know that one day it will be normal NOT to have wine so often. Right now I have a glass here and there. On a couple of nights when I wasn't planing on drinking, my husband poured a glass of wine. I did have two sips off of it and I was surprised that I didn't have any desire for any more after that. You will be surprised that it isn't too hard to say no to your habit. I also will have a non alcoholic beer if I feel I need something and that works well. I know I have to be careful not to allow myself to drink very often so that the new habit will have a chance to cement, otherwise I will be sabotaging all my efforts. And for me, to be indifferent but still struggle with the habit haunting me would make me feel like all that effort was not a success. The side effects did subside dramatically. The only thing I am left with is some tingling in my legs, and if I read after 9:00pm I sometimes get that overwhelming tiredness. But on other nights it doesn't bother me at all. I know everyone's path is different and some don't agree with having any alcohol, but I am just writing about my own experience and what has worked for me so far.
Kim

**bleep** · July 18, 2014, 03:08 AM

As for the switch....

You might find it is a bit of both. Habit is a surprisingly strong beast. I would suggest trying to change your routine for a day or two. Once you have a day or two under your belt you will probably find it very easy to create a new routine. It's just the first day that is tough. Tough isn't even the right word.

**Ne/Neva Eva** · July 18, 2014, 06:03 AM

As for the switch....

Hi, Zampa.

My drinking dwindled for a couple of months before I finally realized I really just didn't want to drink. It wasn't so much an on/off switch as a dimmer. The first time I didn't drink anything, I decided I would skip stopping to pick up my normal supply (which went from wine by the case to 12 packs to 6 packs with some leftover) and just *try*, knowing that I could always run up to 7-11 if I felt an overwhelming urge. I didn't. The same thing happened the next day. It took 6 days before I believed it enough to announce it on here. You'll get there.

The SEs I experienced sucked and I pretty much wanted to quit the whole time I was doing it. It was my last ditch effort, too. I combined it with A LOT of other things, just in case one of them would help get me where I wanted to be. While I think I didn't need those things to stop drinking, I know that they helped me fill time, and stay focused and healthy. I suppose I'm glad it took the time that it did, so I could get used to not drinking.

I'm also very clear that alcohol intensified or created my SEs. I had a period of sobriety at 140 mg that was pretty incredible. (It was Thanksgiving, we were hosting, and I didn't drink around my family.) At the time I thought 140 was my magic number, but I think it had more to do with the fact that I abstained.

I'm not sure you can drink past the switch...I don't really know what that means relative to my own titration experience. I do know that if you find other things to do, it's much easier to quit drinking.

Hang in there and jkktdp.

**Lostinspace** · July 18, 2014, 08:47 AM

As for the switch....

Hi zampa. I apologize for deleting my initial response to you. You had asked for help from long-timers, which I am not - I'm still titrating up myself, so I thought maybe my input might not be all that helpful. Now I'm reconsidering, though, because I feel my current situation is similar to yours, minus the side effects.

My cravings have gone down considerably since reaching 120 mg. I'm currently only drinking about a quarter of what I used to! Granted, I only buy small bottles now each day to keep myself from getting carried away. But, when those small bottles are gone, I don't miss not having more. Before bac, I would have been going nuts, and would have done whatever I needed to do to get more.

I also don't wake up immediately craving. I used to drink all day and all night - even throughout the night as I was barely sleeping at that point. Now, the only thought when I wake up is about my upcoming work day.

I'm not yet indifferent as I do still have some cravings, but the cravings are low enough that I could probably easily bypass the liquor store with a little willpower. Habit is definitely a large part of what draws me back each day. And even once people reach indifference, the habit component still needs to be addressed because we need to figure out new ways of spending our time.

It sounds like you're well on your way and may be close to reaching your switch. Hang in there and keep us updated as to how you're doing.

**Calikime** · July 18, 2014, 09:22 AM

As for the switch....

Ne/Neva Eva;1683610 wrote:

I'm not sure you can drink past the switch...I don't really know what that means relative to my own titration experience. I do know that if you find other things to do, it's much easier to quit drinking.

Hang in there and jkktdp.

Hi Ne,
I guess in my case I was expecting the infamous switch to be some dramatic experience where I went from wanting to drink to completely not wanting to drink in some glorious instant. It happened more slowly than that as I have seen with a lot of other people. As soon as I made the decision to not drink at all for awhile when I was at 140 the indifference really was obvious. What I think in my case is that I could have done this at a lower dose and had the same thing happen. I was already starting to feel like I could take it or leave it with alcohol when I was at around 110 mgs but the habit component just kept me going. Also, I was looking for the anxiety relief so many have experienced and since that wasn't happening I just kept increasing my dose looking for it. I remember posting about the anxiety part of it and the feedback I got was that the anxiety relief usually happens at the lower doses. That's when I made the decision to just stop increasing and not drink and see what happens and things fell into place at that point. I am at 60 mgs now and still indifferent but I never experienced the anxiety relief. I went to a psychiatrist a couple months ago and I now have the anxiety and depression under control with some AD's so I am so glad for that. I think finding things to do like you said is such a key to getting over the habit. I am trying to find a good hobby I can get lost in. For now, I make sure I have plenty of things to keep me busy in the evenings and that makes it easier.

By the way, I have gotten so much out of your posts Ne. I have re read older posts and some of them were yours and they really helped me out along my journey here.
:thanks:
Kim

**tee111** · July 18, 2014, 10:43 AM

As for the switch....

Hey Kim.

Bac done absolutely nothing for what anxiety I do or did have. Its in no way IMO like a benzo which just knock you anxiety right out although they're no long term solution either. What did sort my anxiety out was not drinking. Big surprise I guess (not).

I used to get up in the morning in an awful state and 2-3 beers in I'd be golden. I'm not fully on agreement with the argument that alcoholism is brought on by anxiety. Mine wasn't. I just liked booze like every one else I knew but I took the piss and let it get out of hand. That's when my anxiety started to get bad. (That and abuse of other drugs)

**emily** · July 18, 2014, 12:34 PM

As for the switch....

Calikime;1683564 wrote: Your story is a lot like mine was. Even your comment about "the last hope". I think that keeping that in my mind was what helped me to forge ahead through all the SE's. I had already tried Topamax and Naltrexone, both of which didn't work for me unfortunately, so I really did feel baclofen was my "last hope". On top of what you had, I had this incredible sensitivity to sudden noises, the dryness in the back of throat would cause me to suddenly need to drink some water - NOW or I would go into a coughing fit, ringing in my ears, the extreme tiredness, but the inability to have a good nights sleep. I also lost weight and wasn't really interested in eating. I felt like quitting so many times but I kept at it until I hit 140 mgs. I was still drinking while I was titrating up. There were a few times where I could definitely stop after a couple of drinks. But after getting to 140 I decided to stop drinking and see how I felt. That made a big difference for me and I was able to string many days and weeks where I wasn't drinking and I KNEW I was indifferent. I then started to lower my dose, making sure that my indifference was still intact. I didn't stop drinking entirely while I was lowering the dose, but I did during that period where I just told myself I was going to give wine a break and let baclofen do it's thing. I have been at 60 mgs now for about a month and am trying 50 mgs to see how I do on that. I am sure that I drank past my switch dose because I was still drinking.

Like you, I still have the habit to contend with. The indifference helps tremendously but the habit part is going to take more time to really go away. I have so many connections with it during my 30 yr. stint with drinking wine every night. I was afraid too. One thing I did was really try to come up with things that you can do in the evenings. I know that one day it will be normal NOT to have wine so often. Right now I have a glass here and there. On a couple of nights when I wasn't planing on drinking, my husband poured a glass of wine. I did have two sips off of it and I was surprised that I didn't have any desire for any more after that. You will be surprised that it isn't too hard to say no to your habit. I also will have a non alcoholic beer if I feel I need something and that works well. I know I have to be careful not to allow myself to drink very often so that the new habit will have a chance to cement, otherwise I will be sabotaging all my efforts. And for me, to be indifferent but still struggle with the habit haunting me would make me feel like all that effort was not a success. The side effects did subside dramatically. The only thing I am left with is some tingling in my legs, and if I read after 9:00pm I sometimes get that overwhelming tiredness. But on other nights it doesn't bother me at all. I know everyone's path is different and some don't agree with having any alcohol, but I am just writing about my own experience and what has worked for me so far.
Kim
Thanks so much for this Kim, this is exactly where I am at just now. I too am on 140mg but still drinking. I think I am marveling at the fact that I can have 1/2 glasses of wine or just one beer and not, as you said, go nuts if there isn't anymore.

I am now at the stage where I have realised that it is habit, here I am, Friday night and just had a glass of wine with dinner, pure habit. I didn't drink the last couple of days and didn't miss it.

I have came to the conclusion that I do need to make a decision to stop completely to help cement the indifference in. I don't feel I need to go higher than 140mg and desperately want to go down, 60 like you are on would be fantastic.

Calikime;1683564 wrote: I then started to lower my dose, making sure that my indifference was still intact. I didn't stop drinking entirely while I was lowering the dose, but I did during that period where I just told myself I was going to give wine a break and let baclofen do it's thing.

Could you give a wee bit more information on the above, it would be helpful for me to know how you actually tested the indifference on the way down.

**emily** · July 18, 2014, 12:57 PM

As for the switch....

Hi Zampa

I also had experience, when first on bac, of a switch, if that's indeed what it was. For me I couldn't stomach the taste of red wine, which was mostly what I drank. In fact I poured it down the sink. Not realising how powerful this was I soon found a replacement that I could drink (I can now drink red wine again!)

I think whatever that was wouldn't have lasted long anyway as the 'habit' was much stronger than my newly rewired chemistry.

So here I am and here you are at yet another hurdle or even mountain to climb, maybe the most challenging but what is it they say 'Climb a mountain and see the World' I think that might just be about right.

Good luck

**CaptnHaddock** · July 18, 2014, 04:43 PM

As for the switch....

What a great post! You're line about "the not-that-good-at-all highness" totally hit me, that's where I'm at now. Been on Baclofen for 4 months, started @ 30, now up to 120 but can't up the dosage because of side effects (the high you speak of, which is very difficult to deal with in the office, and the drowsiness -- reminds me of my GHB experiments many years ago).

What kills me is that unlike you, I still open up that bottle of wine when I come home from work, and usually open a second one after that. So I'm buzzed by the Bacl, but the buzz has no influence on my wanting to drink -- if anything, I'd say it compels me to drink even more. Other funny thing -- I fight falling asleep in the afternoon at work; but once I've had a few drinks in the evening (and pumped another 40mg of Baclofen in my sytem), then I can't force myself to go to bed. Weird. (I do sleep like a baby when I'm in bed though).

Anyway, your post is inspiring, and I'll keep at it -- maybe the SEs will fade. Thanks for sharing!

**Calikime** · July 19, 2014, 12:07 AM

As for the switch....

emily;1683763 wrote:
Could you give a wee bit more information on the above, it would be helpful for me to know how you actually tested the indifference on the way down.

Hi Emily,
I think what I meant by making sure I was still indifferent as I lowered my dose, was to watch for any changes such as cravings returning. I really didn't drink for the most part even during the titration down, but I didn't abstain entirely either. One thing I did after I had a string of days or a full week of not having any wine would be to pour one glass of wine and then see how much of it I wanted, or if I would want another glass. I was usually able to stop before finishing the glass of wine so I felt for me that meant that I was still in a state of indifference.

I think your drinking now is pretty much just out of habit. I am working on the habit component of this now. It's almost like I feel bored in the evenings so I am working at having things to do and it has definitely helped. I know it is just going to take time for my evenings to feel normal again. I can already see it improving but it has been a slow process. But I know I will get there.

**Calikime** · July 19, 2014, 12:13 AM

As for the switch....

emily;1683763 wrote:
Could you give a wee bit more information on the above, it would be helpful for me to know how you actually tested the indifference on the way down.

Hi Emily,
I think what I meant by making sure I was still indifferent as I lowered my dose, was to watch for any changes such as cravings returning. I really didn't drink for the most part even during the titration down, but I didn't abstain entirely either. One thing I did after I had a string of days or a full week of not having any wine would be to pour one glass of wine and then see how much of it I wanted, or if I would want another glass. I was usually able to stop before finishing the glass of wine so I felt for me that meant that I was still in a state of indifference.

I think your drinking now is pretty much just out of habit. I am working on the habit component of this now. It's almost like I feel bored in the evenings so I am working at having things to do and it has definitely helped. I know it is just going to take time for my evenings to feel normal again. I can already see it improving but it has been a slow process. But I know I will get there.

**tee111** · July 19, 2014, 02:02 AM

As for the switch....

Maybe a few weeks on antabuse to give yourself a break? Could be what the mind needs?

**Lostinspace** · July 19, 2014, 09:42 AM

As for the switch....

Hi CaptnHaddock :welcome:

Don’t worry too much about the fact that you’re still drinking at 120 mg. While some people do experience significant relief of their cravings, or even hit their switch at this, or a lower, dose many, many people do not. I’ve seen success stories here where people went to a much higher dose than you’re currently on before finding any difference in their drinking.

And the side effects do diminish over time. I can’t really give specific advice since I’m one of the fortunate few who have had no side effects. But do give it time and see if you can start to progress upward in your titration once again as the side effects level off.

I’ve been told that success with bac is a matter of both a high enough dose and TIME. Most of us don’t hit our switch overnight. I’m glad to hear that you’re going to keep at it. Keep the hope going!

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