Quick questions

[zampa75]

Hi all,
I have been at 140 for 3 days now and the switch is still nowhere to be seen...
The drowsiness in the afternoons it seems to me is getting worse rather than better...!
And I've just read a post by Fred The Cat (most awesome nickname ever) about SE's coming back at a lower dose.... WTfreak?

And also very important: in the same post I have read pp have occasional binges after reaching the switch, binges that can be as low as 2 glasses of wine (I WISH!!) or serious ones worthy of the good all days. I had read something like this in the past too.... So... how does that work?? One may just drink for the heck of it without feeling the diabolical urge to, or overdo it socially without being a slave to it...or... does the switch go on and off?? I am a bit confused.

Still struggling with SE's, still waiting for the switch to happen, and still fighting the temptation to give up... But not yet, damn it. Not yet. Unless these damn SE's don't subside and undermine my work and study, I will stick to this. Let's hope that doesn't happen....

[spiritwolf333]

Quick questions

Hi Zampa -you pose a great question(s). I am glad that you brought it forward. When all is said and done, Baclofen does help reduce the physical and mental 'need' to drink alcohol. Baclofen does not remove all of the reasons we alcoholics drank in the first place. And of course, this is only my opinion and experience.

Hopefully, before too long, you will begin to feel the diminishing effects of alcohol as related to physical and mental cravings. It is my opinion that it takes much more time to diminish or eliminate the reasons we drink in the first place. We drink to change the way that we feel or think -and this is a fact.

[kronkcarr]

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Hey zampa,

Good questions. I didn't go as high in dosage as you but I did have SEs. I think I mentioned on your other thread how, for me, going up or down changed my SEs. I journaled my first year. It seemed to me when I titrated down I had more SEs but when I looked back over my notes it wasn't true. I just thought I wouldn't have them going down.

Your other question interests me. I am one who drinks every so often. I can't say how many times because I don't track it. It's not important to me because I don't over drink.

spirit posted:

We drink to change the way that we feel or think -and this is a fact.


This is his fact but not my fact. I drank for this reason before baclofen. When I drink now it's part of a gathering with friends. It's what I do.

It was healthy for me to learn how to identify my feelings--I only felt happy or angry pre bac, to learn how to manage them and to learn how to express them or not. I learned a lot about others and I quit being a victim. Baclofen was worth it all.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Quick questions

zampa75;1690081 wrote: Hi all,
I have been at 140 for 3 days now and the switch is still nowhere to be seen...
The drowsiness in the afternoons it seems to me is getting worse rather than better...!
3 days isn't enough time? If you really want to figure this thing out, I suggest a hail mary pass. Figure out a way to get 3 days sober. It's a game-changer. (Look at me with all the sports metaphors! Don't be fooled. :H)

zampa75;1690081 wrote: And I've just read a post by Fred The Cat (most awesome nickname ever) about SE's coming back at a lower dose.... WTfreak?
Hmmmm. It's very important to put things into context...Fred has a lot going on. Maybe you will have SEs. Maybe you won't. I guarantee you that Fred wouldn't change his mind now about reaching indifference in the first place. But it might be a good idea to ask him!

zampa75;1690081 wrote: And also very important: in the same post I have read pp have occasional binges after reaching the switch, binges that can be as low as 2 glasses of wine (I WISH!!) or serious ones worthy of the good all days. I had read something like this in the past too.... So... how does that work?? One may just drink for the heck of it without feeling the diabolical urge to, or overdo it socially without being a slave to it...or... does the switch go on and off?? I am a bit confused.

It's confusing and there isn't any firm answer. You'll have to figure out what you want to do when you get here. Keep in mind that these are individual experiences. (Spirit, I really, REALLY wish you would stop speaking for "all" alcoholics. Dude. Please. I'm begging you.) So...I have had the experience of drinking too much, and drinking but not too much. Booze wreaks havoc on my 44 year old body, and I feel hungover after a couple of glasses of wine. On the other hand, I enjoy a very occasional drink. It would be completely irresponsible to suggest that you can drink "normally" after you're indifferent. But many of us do just that. I've also seen people who go down too far and relapse or binge. (My husband being one of them.)

zampa75;1690081 wrote: Still struggling with SE's, still waiting for the switch to happen, and still fighting the temptation to give up... But not yet, damn it. Not yet. Unless these damn SE's don't subside and undermine my work and study, I will stick to this. Let's hope that doesn't happen....

It seems to me the primary question is what you can do to get rid of the SEs. Right? White knuckle the booze. Manage sleep. Manage exercise and food. Come up with a plan B if you have to start back to work and you're still not indifferent.

Just out of curiosity, remind me of how much and for how long you've been drinking. How old are you? Last period of sobriety? And for how long?

[Lostinspace]

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Hi zampa. I don't have much to add, especially because I haven't yet hit the switch myself, so I don't have any personal experience with it. But I'm glad you're still sticking it out.

Please don't give up. I know it's hard - I'm getting rather impatient myself - but you've already come so far. I've never seen anyone here who stuck it out long enough to reach their switch, and stay there long enough for the SEs to subside, go on to say that they regretted going through what they did to get there. It's always life changing. Hang in there!

[zampa75]

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Neva - I've been drinking for 9 years, but very heavily for 4. I am 38, and my last period of sobriety was two years ago, but I would not drink Mon-Fri and drink over the weekends. I was never totally AL free. That lasted a couple of months. I can say that I manage days w/o wine every now and then, but never more than mere days.

So, it seems to me managing a few days w/o drinking might boost/reveal the switch, from what you guys are saying?

It may also be that I am drinking as heavily now notwithstanding the 140 mg because I am very, very depressed right now... Maybe I am already there but drinking out of habit? I know I've already asked this question, and most of you said you don't believe you can drink "past your switch"... But maybe not recognize it b/c you drown it in alcohol because you feel your life sucks?

Also, I am smoking three times what I used to only a couple of months ago...*&^%$#@!!!! Any feedback on this?? To think that that was an addiction I managed to cut down on so much w/o even trying...

[skullbabyland]

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zampa75;1690390 wrote: Neva - I've been drinking for 9 years, but very heavily for 4. I am 38, and my last period of sobriety was two years ago, but I would not drink Mon-Fri and drink over the weekends. I was never totally AL free. That lasted a couple of months. I can say that I manage days w/o wine every now and then, but never more than mere days.

So, it seems to me managing a few days w/o drinking might boost/reveal the switch, from what you guys are saying?

It may also be that I am drinking as heavily now notwithstanding the 140 mg because I am very, very depressed right now... Maybe I am already there but drinking out of habit? I know I've already asked this question, and most of you said you don't believe you can drink "past your switch"... But maybe not recognize it b/c you drown it in alcohol because you feel your life sucks?

Also, I am smoking three times what I used to only a couple of months ago...*&^%$#@!!!! Any feedback on this?? To think that that was an addiction I managed to cut down on so much w/o even trying...

Z, I can definitely say that forcing some AF time, shitty though it may be, helped bac to work for me. I forced a few days here and there, 3 or so at a time, then 7. Then 14, then 30. That's where things really got better for me.

Whatever AF days you can manage and/or force, I'd encourage you to do it. Bac seems to really take hold that way, though of course every one's experience varies.

Even if you have to just sit on the couch watching crap TV and feeling like shit, and/or take a benadryl at 7 pm to go to sleep super early (which I did many, many nights, just to not be awake/tempted to drink). Whatever. It's worth forcing a few days at a time.

Also, re- smoking, yep that one surprised me too- it was almost harder to give up than drinking. Well, because I was taking Baclofen for drinking. I with there was such a thing as Smokelofen. But nicotine lozenges as a replacement helped me to reduce and eventually give up smokes.

For now, just force a few days AF and see what that does to your cravings.
Best of luck, Z-

Skull

[spiritwolf333]

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kronkcarr;1690102 wrote: Hey zampa,

Good questions.
Your other question interests me. I am one who drinks every so often. I can't say how many times because I don't track it. It's not important to me because I don't over drink.

spirit posted:

We drink to change the way that we feel or think -and this is a fact.


This is his fact but not my fact. I drank for this reason before baclofen. When I drink now it's part of a gathering with friends. It's what I do.

It was healthy for me to learn how to identify my feelings--I only felt happy or angry pre bac, to learn how to manage them and to learn how to express them or not. I learned a lot about others and I quit being a victim. Baclofen was worth it all.

Hi Kronk and Zampa

Kronk, I can only imagine that we not quite talking about the same thing. Perhaps I need to be more specific. The factual point that I am trying to make is that the chemical ethanol (alcohol) chemically changes the brain. After introducing alcohol into an animal's system, its brain chemistry changes -there is virtually no way around this fact.

Kronk, in no way do I mean to suggest that you or any others take alcohol to "intentionally" change your thinking or feeling. But once alcohol is introduced into your system, you have no control over the chemical effects to your brain. What I believe that you are trying to say is that you no longer drink to change your negative emotions or feelings. That you can now drink at will, only to potentially enjoy the positive parts of alcohol without the drawbacks of craving or remorse.

You are a perfect example of the fact that Baclofen does not change reasons why you drank in the first place, it only helps to eliminate mental and physical cravings. And Baclofen helped give you time away from alcohol to understand this?

[spiritwolf333]

Quick questions

[QUOTE=Ne/Neva Eva;1690304] It's confusing and there isn't any firm answer. You'll have to figure out what you want to do when you get here.

Keep in mind that these are individual experiences.

Spirit, I really, REALLY wish you would stop speaking for "all" alcoholics. Dude. Please. I'm begging you.
Per NE:
"So...I have had the experience of drinking too much, and drinking but not too much. Booze wreaks havoc on my 44 year old body, and I feel hungover after a couple of glasses of wine. On the other hand, I enjoy a very occasional drink. It would be completely irresponsible to suggest that you can drink "normally" after you're indifferent. But many of us do just that. I've also seen people who go down too far and relapse or binge. (My husband being one of them.)"

So Ne-The medication Baclofen (the reduction in dose) is the "only" reason your husband went back to binge drinking?

Ne -you really do confuse my already frail and challenged mind to begin with. Please Ne, I am begging you, what do I say about alcoholics or alcoholism that is not true? If we were not alcoholics with mostly the same common denominators, we would not even be on this site discussing these issues. I do not give one rats ass what you call our common affliction Ne: alcoholism, overdrinkingism, firewaterism, bla---. I think what we ALL know is that alcohol creates major challenges in our lives -Baclofen or not.

If my statement is wrong "Baclofen can help reduce or eliminate mental and physical cravings, but does not eliminate our reasons for consuming in the first place", then please let me know. Otherwise, why not try to help the fellow alcoholic coming to this site try to understand the realities of Baclofen and the potential real help that the drug offers?


QUOTE]

[spiritwolf333]

Quick questions

zampa75;1690390 wrote: Neva - I've been drinking for 9 years, but very heavily for 4. I am 38, and my last period of sobriety was two years ago, but I would not drink Mon-Fri and drink over the weekends. I was never totally AL free. That lasted a couple of months. I can say that I manage days w/o wine every now and then, but never more than mere days.

So, it seems to me managing a few days w/o drinking might boost/reveal the switch, from what you guys are saying?

It may also be that I am drinking as heavily now notwithstanding the 140 mg because I am very, very depressed right now... Maybe I am already there but drinking out of habit? I know I've already asked this question, and most of you said you don't believe you can drink "past your switch"... But maybe not recognize it b/c you drown it in alcohol because you feel your life sucks?

Also, I am smoking three times what I used to only a couple of months ago...*&^%$#@!!!! Any feedback on this?? To think that that was an addiction I managed to cut down on so much w/o even trying...

Hi Zampa, it has been my experience that the first three to four days of removing oneself from alcohol are the most difficult. Baclofen or not. However, for me, it did seem as though the baclofen reduced both my physical and mental cravings to a great degree -post three days being alcohol free. It has also been my experience that these first alcohol free days (weeks) present the biggest challenge because our brains at that time are still not accustomed to the new af environment. My brain would always tell me that this alcohol free state is great but I just don't recognize who I really am or what I am suppose to be feeling. The alcohol brain kicks into action and says I can show you normalcy.

Peace to Ya

[beckty]

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zampa75;1690081 wrote: One may just drink for the heck of it without feeling the diabolical urge to, or overdo it socially without being a slave to it......

^^^ This has kind of been my experience. I've not had a full blown "switch" at this point. I still think of drinking. It's still kind of on my radar. But the compulsion is gone. I am at 140 as of today. I dabbled down at 120 because SE's were bugging me, but I did better at 140. Because of SE's (horrible afternoon sleepiness, some insomnia, and HIDEOUS horrid bad taste in my mouth) have me staying put at 140 for now.

I have only over drank one time in 2 months. I am still drinking very minimally, but regularly. Not sure how I feel about it. But I am fine with the process and where I am for now.

[Fred_The_Cat]

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zampa75;1690081 wrote: Hi all,
I have been at 140 for 3 days now and the switch is still nowhere to be seen...
The drowsiness in the afternoons it seems to me is getting worse rather than better...!
And I've just read a post by Fred The Cat (most awesome nickname ever) about SE's coming back at a lower dose.... WTfreak?

And also very important: in the same post I have read pp have occasional binges after reaching the switch, binges that can be as low as 2 glasses of wine (I WISH!!) or serious ones worthy of the good all days. I had read something like this in the past too.... So... how does that work?? One may just drink for the heck of it without feeling the diabolical urge to, or overdo it socially without being a slave to it...or... does the switch go on and off?? I am a bit confused.

Of course it's the most awesome nickname ever. Did you know I used to be Fred's stern alcoholic father? (Wake up FRED! It's time to go to WORK!!!!)

Anyway- i would blame SE's on deviating from my usual pattern. I do not know the exact mechanism of baclofen, but taking it seems to build up your supplies of not caring about alcohol and drinking depletes it. if you spend more than you earn, at some point you go in the red and you're back where you're started. Maybe deviating from my usual drinking pattern left me with a surplus of bac in my system?

As far as binging- the jury is out on this one as far as I'm personally concerned. Maybe once every two months I'll find myself drop dead drunk and regretting it for days afterwards (10 drinks). Maybe once a week I'll be earnestly drunk. (5-6 drinks) Maybe once or twice a week aside from that I'll be buzzed. (2 drinks) I know my limits, and pushing them makes me feel very, very miserable. I will definitively state that a surefire way to lose your switch is drinking every day, which is in itself a problem whether you've switched or not.


As far as urges- I would label addiction as having a chemical component and a habitual component. Even after becoming indifferent, I still thought it was great to go to the bar every night and have 2-3 drinks, blissfully ignorant of the fact that I was being completely pathetic. Old habits die hard, and I ended up losing my switch over that. The only sustainable way to stay indifferent in my experience is to get better habits down after your nerves aren't screaming for alcohol anymore. Exercise is amazing- it will kill any craving within minutes. Cut out chunks of time and commit them to something constructive to crowd out drinking, because you will be at a total loss for a while.

[Lostinspace]

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zampa75;1690390 wrote: Also, I am smoking three times what I used to only a couple of months ago...*&^%$#@!!!! Any feedback on this?? To think that that was an addiction I managed to cut down on so much w/o even trying...

zampa - I know this is only addressing a tiny part of what you're asking, but as someone who hasn't yet reached the switch, it's all I have to offer. As far as the smoking goes, do you think it may be getting so much worse just because you have a lot of free time right now? I think I remember you saying that your work follows the academic school year, so maybe that's why it was so much easier to cut back a couple months ago.

Plus add to that the fact that you've been depressed as of late. Feeling unmotivated to do much, along with having a lot of spare time, could definitely lead to a lot of extra smoking by itself. It's not necessarily bac-related. Just a thought.

I hope I'm not giving an oversimplified, stupid response. In any case, hang in there. It will get better.

[StuckinLA]

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Smoking always seems to fill the void left by other things, in my experience. Plus I always smoke when I'm anxious, and bac made me anxious quite a bit in the higher doses.

[zampa75]

Quick questions

Stuck, have you switched?
At what dose?

So Fred: it's actually possible to lose the switch?? Bummer!

It definitely looks like I could be drinking out of depression and not be recognizing the switch?? Then I am screwed. I'm so depressed right now the only thing I wait for is the sunset to have my first drink... Which is even more depressing... Yes, I am taking medication for that but it won't change the cause of my depression, unfortunately.

I just wish this stuff were working already. It seems to me 140 is a lot for a woman, and I am not big...I can't stand the drowsiness and dry mouth and inability to get out of bed in the morning anymore... the latter thing makes me feel even worse b/c I just waste my mornings in bed... damn.