For those who have lost the switch from drinking everyday - Baclofen

[bleep]

For those who have lost the switch from drinking everyday - Baclofen

I have a different take on the whole matter.

People who drink once they have reached indifference aren't "guilty" of losing their switch, and they haven't wasted the miracle. They began something that they weren't sure would work, and have continued the experiment. Simply because the experiment didn't work perfectly is no reason to condemn it. As you have done, Neo, and now found something that now works, doesn't mean that that's it for the rest of your life. If you aren't happy with the way things are, try changing them a little and seeing what happens. There is nothing wrong with trying for something that you desire.

This is a great big groovy experiment until chemists and neuroscientists figure out what is going on. Treat it as such and don't be so hard on yourself. You are already in uncharted territory as it is, the rare guinea pig that didn't lose all of its hair and fall over dead. Celebrate accordingly and be grateful.

I am away for a week from tomorrow and so won't be able to respond.

[Boodle]

For those who have lost the switch from drinking everyday - Baclofen

This thread is too close to my heart not to chime in. I have considered starting a thread. Generally, I just lurk quietly and never say "Boo".

I started Baclofen gosh... 2 years ago. I called Dr. L in while standing outside in the rain, so that my family wouldn't hear me talking to him. He did that goofy thing where he told me to walk into a pharmacy and ask for Baclofen. If they wouldn't give it to me, they were to call his office.. and so on... It was a true test of how much you wanted it, for sure!!! Gee... let me think, how many pharmacys just hand out meds. NONE!

I was at a breaking point. It was go to inpatient rehab or give this a try. I was getting the shakes and starting to need to drink during the day. I was carrying "nip" size bottles of vodka in my purse, just in case. It was BAD!!! I would be in a meeting at 4 and start to feel withdrawals and the ANXIETY. Holy cow the anxiety of needing a drink.

I hit my switch at 125, which was pretty low, considering how much I was drinking. I went 8 months AF. I transformed myself!!! I lost 70lbs, got fit, and felt all around AMAZING. I live in a quiet little town and all was fantastic.

I moved overseas to a big city that has a crazy nightlife. My husband works with some great people that we hang out with and unfortunately, go out with. I have been dancing on bars at 5am. Not good for ones switch. I drank through my switch and could see the writing on the wall....

I have been titrating up again and am currently around 170. The SE's are a bit of a bitch, but... it is better than wanting to drink. There is something to be said about that 3-7 day AF mark. Your brain kinda changes. The first day or two were strange for me. It wasn't impossible in any way, just very strange and I would say a little uncomfortable.

I am an alcoholic. When I lose my switch, I crave alcohol. I notice it when I am at a restaurant and wonder where the server is. I want her to come and ask me what I want to drink.

I respectfully disagree with Bleep. I can't afford to lose my life to alcohol and that is where I am headed if I play with my switch. I have learned that I don't have the ability to recognize my problem, until it is too late. I can't play with it and know that it isn't working. I can rationalize having another drink, EVERY SINGLE TIME!! God bless anyone who is truly an alcoholic that can get that point of moderation and not let that evil AL whisper "It's been a hard day, you deserve a drink." I watch friends nurse a drink for an hour and just don't understand or have the ability to do that.

I plan to treat my new switch as a gift. We want a "magic" pill that cures us. Well, guess what... "This kinda does it!!!" It isn't an instant fix and it does take some work out our part. I plan to take ownership of it and treat it like the gift that I was given by Dr. L. I don't want to wake up feeling like crap and watching the side affects that will kill me. I have neuropathy in my feet and when I stopped drinking it slowly got better... hmmm... it's coming back. CRAP!

I am planning on being a more active part of this community. It was a lifeline when I needed it. I need it again and plan to get my act together again! I am not the person I want to be when I am on the second bottle of wine.... or third.

Sorry for the long post. I hope I didn't offend anyone and look forward to actually participating and not just lurking!

[Samandkatharine]

For those who have lost the switch from drinking everyday - Baclofen

Boodle;1693058 wrote: This thread is too close to my heart not to chime in. I have considered starting a thread. Generally, I just lurk quietly and never say "Boo".

I started Baclofen gosh... 2 years ago. I called Dr. L in while standing outside in the rain, so that my family wouldn't hear me talking to him. He did that goofy thing where he told me to walk into a pharmacy and ask for Baclofen. If they wouldn't give it to me, they were to call his office.. and so on... It was a true test of how much you wanted it, for sure!!! Gee... let me think, how many pharmacys just hand out meds. NONE!

I was at a breaking point. It was go to inpatient rehab or give this a try. I was getting the shakes and starting to need to drink during the day. I was carrying "nip" size bottles of vodka in my purse, just in case. It was BAD!!! I would be in a meeting at 4 and start to feel withdrawals and the ANXIETY. Holy cow the anxiety of needing a drink.

I hit my switch at 125, which was pretty low, considering how much I was drinking. I went 8 months AF. I transformed myself!!! I lost 70lbs, got fit, and felt all around AMAZING. I live in a quiet little town and all was fantastic.

I moved overseas to a big city that has a crazy nightlife. My husband works with some great people that we hang out with and unfortunately, go out with. I have been dancing on bars at 5am. Not good for ones switch. I drank through my switch and could see the writing on the wall....

I have been titrating up again and am currently around 170. The SE's are a bit of a bitch, but... it is better than wanting to drink. There is something to be said about that 3-7 day AF mark. Your brain kinda changes. The first day or two were strange for me. It wasn't impossible in any way, just very strange and I would say a little uncomfortable.

I am an alcoholic. When I lose my switch, I crave alcohol. I notice it when I am at a restaurant and wonder where the server is. I want her to come and ask me what I want to drink.

I respectfully disagree with Bleep. I can't afford to lose my life to alcohol and that is where I am headed if I play with my switch. I have learned that I don't have the ability to recognize my problem, until it is too late. I can't play with it and know that it isn't working. I can rationalize having another drink, EVERY SINGLE TIME!! God bless anyone who is truly an alcoholic that can get that point of moderation and not let that evil AL whisper "It's been a hard day, you deserve a drink." I watch friends nurse a drink for an hour and just don't understand or have the ability to do that.

I plan to treat my new switch as a gift. We want a "magic" pill that cures us. Well, guess what... "This kinda does it!!!" It isn't an instant fix and it does take some work out our part. I plan to take ownership of it and treat it like the gift that I was given by Dr. L. I don't want to wake up feeling like crap and watching the side affects that will kill me. I have neuropathy in my feet and when I stopped drinking it slowly got better... hmmm... it's coming back. CRAP!

I am planning on being a more active part of this community. It was a lifeline when I needed it. I need it again and plan to get my act together again! I am not the person I want to be when I am on the second bottle of wine.... or third.

Sorry for the long post. I hope I didn't offend anyone and look forward to actually participating and not just lurking!

Boodle...

:welcome:

Where have you been? Stop lurking and start posting. Many of us are on our second or more time at the rodeo.

How upstate in NY are you? I lived out on LI for a few years
, and my son missed going to Cooperstown for baseball this year.

Baclofen works, and I'm getting close to switching for the second time. Sharing your experience helps me and other in the same situation. Thanks for posting!

Sam

[neophyte]

For those who have lost the switch from drinking everyday - Baclofen

Fred_The_Cat;1692550 wrote: Hey Neo,

Exactly as you said- drinking every day, even in small or moderate amounts, will erode your switch. It does not seem to be a linear progression either- you lose it bit by bit and before you know it you're smacked upside the head.

I never had to resort to Antabuse, but the only way to restore indifference is forced alcohol free time.

For information purposes, what was your switch/maintenance dose?

Thanks for the added insight. I tried forced abstinence, but I would fall into old alcoholic mind games. For me it's around having a bad day at work or thinking I won't be able to sleep because I've had too many days in a row of drinking, so I need to taper off... The antabuse just shuts up those thoughts completely, I have no option, so the thoughts quickly go away.

My switch was 295mg, but I continue to take 300mg as it's easier to measure out.

[Lostinspace]

For those who have lost the switch from drinking everyday - Baclofen

Welcome back Boodle! I'm happy to hear, both that you found your switch again, and that you decided to come out of hiding and start posting again. I hope to see you around the boards

[Boodle]

For those who have lost the switch from drinking everyday - Baclofen

Hey Sam - Thanks for the welcome. I am up in the beautiful finger lakes. I do spend a good part of my year in Asia though. We are getting ready to head back next week. It's good and bad. Great life over there as well, but much more of a party atmosphere.... No horse and buggies there!

Neo - Wow! 300mgs of Baclofen. I feel like I am reeling with the side effects at 180. Good on you for being able to go that high. Tonight I poured a glass of wine and didn't drink half. I gave the rest to my husband, who happily drank that and the rest of the bottle.... I am guessing he will be snoring tonight. Oh well.

Lost - Thanks for the welcome and I hope to get my act together on this go. I can't see going higher on the baclofen. 180mgs is just about driving batty with SE's.

[neophyte]

For those who have lost the switch from drinking everyday - Baclofen

Boodle;1693390 wrote: Hey Sam - Thanks for the welcome. I am up in the beautiful finger lakes. I do spend a good part of my year in Asia though. We are getting ready to head back next week. It's good and bad. Great life over there as well, but much more of a party atmosphere.... No horse and buggies there!

Neo - Wow! 300mgs of Baclofen. I feel like I am reeling with the side effects at 180. Good on you for being able to go that high. Tonight I poured a glass of wine and didn't drink half. I gave the rest to my husband, who happily drank that and the rest of the bottle.... I am guessing he will be snoring tonight. Oh well.

Lost - Thanks for the welcome and I hope to get my act together on this go. I can't see going higher on the baclofen. 180mgs is just about driving batty with SE's.

lucky its only 180 it gets harder the higher you go up! Though at the time having a job where i could take naps in the park and generally not work very hard went a long way. I've been on 300mg for at least 9 months now, it's virtually side effect free. You just have to wait 2-3 months once you have reached your switch dose and the side effects go away.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

For those who have lost the switch from drinking everyday - Baclofen

neophyte;1691616 wrote:

Baclofen is a miracle cure for alcoholism, but it requires respect and the adamant desire to leave the old life of alcoholism behind.

Is there a place for moderation, I believe so, just be mindful of the dangers, set rules and stick to them e.g. only have 2 glasses when in the company of friends.

If nothing changes, then nothing changes. It's an anecdotal truth on this forum that the people who continue to drink regularly after they hit their switch keep drinking until the drinking consumes them again.

Not being an alcoholic means not behaving like an alcoholic. Alcoholics, by definition, spend a lot of their time around booze. We think obsessively about it and plan for it and look forward to it. We manage situations and lifestyles based on our need for alcohol. Changing that probably means changing just about everything. I cannot fathom regularly going to a bar or a club to hang out if the purpose in my life is to get and stay happily sober. Happily sober people don't tend to be found from a group of friends and acquaintances in those places.

Moderation implies that one has the desire to drink and is planning life around drinking. It doesn't exist. I can't imagine going through my daily life planning my next drink, as though it's some sort of reward. It's not! It's punishment!!! I know from experience (over and over and over again) that there is no bad situation that drinking alcohol doesn't make worse.

All of those things do not exclude having a drink. If life is based on being contentedly sober, then having a very occasional drink is no threat. But anyone who thinks that they don't run a risk every time they pick up a glass in answer to a problem or a celebration is fooling themselves. And no one else.

Glad you're feeling better, Neo. That is a great solution to a very dramatic problem.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

For those who have lost the switch from drinking everyday - Baclofen

Reggie;1693609 wrote: Hi I just need to chip in ..I don't think we have lost anything ...Baclofen or the switch or whatever ..we have taken action .....and that's what counts .. Personally Baclofen has stopped me drinking my self to death ..for that there is no argument ..proloyoze anaylize ..we are all taking action against something we thought was beyond controlling ..in a little way we do it every day ..we improve our lives ..that's what counts ..
Take the pill power on

Had to quote it so it doesn't get disappeared.

Very good points.

[Boodle]

For those who have lost the switch from drinking everyday - Baclofen

I got two new mantras this week that I love!

"Take the pill power on"

and

"Protect your quit"

Thanks Guys!

[skullbabyland]

For those who have lost the switch from drinking everyday - Baclofen

neophyte;1693134 wrote: Thanks for the added insight. I tried forced abstinence, but I would fall into old alcoholic mind games. For me it's around having a bad day at work or thinking I won't be able to sleep because I've had too many days in a row of drinking, so I need to taper off... The antabuse just shuts up those thoughts completely, I have no option, so the thoughts quickly go away.

My switch was 295mg, but I continue to take 300mg as it's easier to measure out.

For those newbies who may not have read about it, I too do this same thing with Baclofen paired with Antabuse, same as Neo, and find it's the winning combination. Much more detail can be found over in my Skullbaby's Progress thread, here- https://www.mywayout.org/community/f2...-51-77326.html

[StuckinLA]

For those who have lost the switch from drinking everyday - Baclofen

Boodle;1693390 wrote: 180mgs is just about driving batty with SE's.

SEs don't necessarily get "worse" the higher you go, just... different. 180 was a really rough place for me. 200, 220 felt much easier to deal with. Don't move doses too quickly, but also it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to stay somewhere that isn't comfortable for too long. Sometimes going down a little before going up can help. The same dose can feel different the second time around.

[neophyte]

For those who have lost the switch from drinking everyday - Baclofen

StuckinLA;1693817 wrote: SEs don't necessarily get "worse" the higher you go, just... different. 180 was a really rough place for me. 200, 220 felt much easier to deal with. Don't move doses too quickly, but also it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to stay somewhere that isn't comfortable for too long. Sometimes going down a little before going up can help. The same dose can feel different the second time around.

I found the opposite, it got worse for me. when I pushed from 295 to 320, I received some nasty visual side effects, red dots added to all the other sides. so i decided to stay at 300. during my tritation up from 180 up to 295, i had week long stretches of not drinking with the occasional binge. once I hit my switch I no longer had binges and I didn't like having more than one or two glasses of wine.

[terryk]

For those who have lost the switch from drinking everyday - Baclofen

neophyte;1691619 wrote: I'd be interested on the mechanism of cravings returning after drinking. Kronkcarr pointed me to some research showing that baclofen reduces the amount of dopamine released when drinking. Perhaps drinking reverse that. Or potentially its just habit and not addiction? I'd like to see what Terryk and Kronkcarr think about it.

This experience also suggests that having some forced abstinence when tritating up might allow people to find their switch at a lower dose.

Hey Neo, I'm sorry that you've had some trouble with your switch (and sorry I couldn't reply sooner - I was away camping last week, I had only spotty internet and a phone to catch what I could).

I've got to say that your experience of losing indifference while on hdb/switch dose comes as a bit of a surprise to me (not that I doubt you at all - I place a lot of value on your contributions here, and find your input genuine, thoughtful and thorough).

For me, baclofen not only eliminates craving, but also gives me a rather visceral aversion to getting drunk or even buzzed. Alcohol doesn't relax me any more, nor does it produce any stimulation or euphoria. If I have more than 3 beers I often get an ill-at ease feeling and can count on a flush of bac side-effects, especially when I'm trying to fall asleep later that evening. I haven't been drunk, drank to excess, or had near 14 beers in any seven day period in almost 4 years even though I've given myself permission several times to test just how sturdy my indifference really is. Alcohol just doesn't work that way for me anymore, and I attribute that solely to baclofen (before anyone replies to this with the words "true alcoholic" in their post, please take a moment to read a bit of my history in the "Terryk - at 2 years of indifference" link in my signature below to see if I didn't thoroughly qualify before finally straightening my life out).

I think the majority of the reports on MWO of people "losing their switch" describe it as a result of titrating to too low of a maintenance dose, or tapering off completely in hopes that baclofen will have lasting permanent effects after discontinuation. In most of those cases, indifference could be readily re-established by titrating back up to (or closer to) one's switch dose: Bleep, Isolde, Xadrian jump to mind.

I can't think of any other reports of a return to daily drinking from such a high/post-switch dose, and your experience gives me pause. I have no idea if it's old habits, drinking through the baclofen, or rekindling the dopamine-addiction cycle that gets us in trouble in the first place. Overall, I think that it's another example of how everyone's experience is going to be unique, and that it is certainly possible to abuse alcohol whilst taking baclofen - even at a switch dose.

Glad you're back on track now, and since you mentioned studies - here are some journal articles about dopamine/alcohol/baclofen:

Dopamine and alcoholics:

Decreases in dopamine receptors but not in dopamine transporters in alcoholics [Alcohol Clin Exp Res. 1996] - PubMed - NCBI


At low doses, baclofen increases dopamine - at high doses it decreases it:

Bi-directional effects of GABA: B: receptor agonists on the mesolimbic dopamine system : Article : Nature Neuroscience


2 different groups of selectively bred mice react differently to baclofen in terms of dopamine response and stimulatory effect of alcohol. (btw, FAST or SLOW -no one here is a mouse, ):

GABAB receptor activation attenuates the stimulant but not mesolimbic dopamine response to ethanol in FAST mice


More rodents - drugs of abuse, dopamine and baclofen:

Reversal of inhibition of putative dopaminergic neurons of the ventral tegmental area: Interaction of GABAB and D2 receptors

-tk

[Ne/Neva Eva]

For those who have lost the switch from drinking everyday - Baclofen

terryk;1695024 wrote:

I think the majority of the reports on MWO of people "losing their switch" describe it as a result of titrating to too low of a maintenance dose, or tapering off completely in hopes that baclofen will have lasting permanent effects after discontinuation. In most of those cases, indifference could be readily re-established by titrating back up to (or closer to) one's switch dose: Bleep, Isolde, Xadrian jump to mind.


-tk

And me. When I get closer to my switch dose I have an aversion to alcohol, too. When I go lower, I still don't drink alcoholically, but I have definitely overdone it.