For those who have lost the switch from drinking everyday - Baclofen

[neophyte]

It's been a year on baclofen, but I am ashamed to say that I recently got into a habit of drinking wine each night, 2 glasses, turned into half a bottle and then 3/4 of a bottle. A far cry from the days I was drinking a bottle of scotch a night. However the pattern was clear, I decided to stop this, but found my cravings had returned though not as strong as before.

When attempting to stop I found myself playing the old mind games "oh it was a stressful day at work, i should have a few glasses of wine to relax" etc. Alcoholism is a powerful addiction, it turns your own reasoning against you.

I found the solution to my problem, the day after drinking when I was sure no alcohol was in my system I took antabuse for 3 weeks. The first day I found myself wishing I hadn't taken the antabuse because of cravings. However over 3 days they quickly went to my pre baclofen switch.

When I originally obtained my switch, when I consumed alcohol I didn't enjoy the taste or the feeling of inebriation creeping up with each drink I took. So I decided to test my switch again in the same way. After 4 weeks when the antabuse had cleared my system, I had a glass of wine and didn't enjoy it at all, switch restored.

I'm writing this post for a few reasons. Firstly, it is indeed possible to lose your switch if you continue to drink alcohol daily at higher and higher amounts. Secondly, my protocol offers a solution to those who have lost their switch.

In terms of my regaining the switch protocol, usual disclaimer, I'm not a doctor, do not take this as medical advice.

Baclofen is a miracle cure for alcoholism, but it requires respect and the adamant desire to leave the old life of alcoholism behind.

Is there a place for moderation, I believe so, just be mindful of the dangers, set rules and stick to them e.g. only have 2 glasses when in the company of friends.

[neophyte]

For those who have lost the switch from drinking everyday - Baclofen

I'd be interested on the mechanism of cravings returning after drinking. Kronkcarr pointed me to some research showing that baclofen reduces the amount of dopamine released when drinking. Perhaps drinking reverse that. Or potentially its just habit and not addiction? I'd like to see what Terryk and Kronkcarr think about it.

This experience also suggests that having some forced abstinence when tritating up might allow people to find their switch at a lower dose.

[spiritwolf333]

For those who have lost the switch from drinking everyday - Baclofen

Neo -This is one of the best, most helpful, insightful, threads (posts) that I have ever read on MWO. Why? Because you speak from your truth and your experience.

This post and this thread will continue to be bumped upwards as long as I am a member here. Many still posting on this forum out-drank their point of indifference quite a while back. They get very upset when this type of information is brought forward.

But Neo, with your post and thread, you have made a difference -a huge difference in the lives of those who still suffer from our common affliction. I thank you.

SW

[Samandkatharine]

For those who have lost the switch from drinking everyday - Baclofen

I think a lot of us are guilty of switching... Then playing with it. I'm guilty....
I had a hard switch in late January and kept it until early June. I was so proud and posted of it often. I toyed with it in late May with drinking on the weekends,which was fine until it ventured into 1-2 times a week . Now I'm going back on Bac and am into my 2nd week at 60mg.

Neo,thanks. You are right...

Sam

[neophyte]

For those who have lost the switch from drinking everyday - Baclofen

Thanks everyone, actually I'm not sure what spurred me to have the confidence to write this out. I was ashamed, I felt like I failed myself in that I got an easy way out of the addiction to alcoholism, after it had taken so much from me; and then here I was, throwing it away.

I have been a vocal advocate of baclofen as a cure to alcoholism, so I felt like I wasn't practising what I preach and thus a hypocrite. Analogous to a right wing politician spouting anti drug rhetoric whilst consuming drugs on the weekends away from public eye

I remember someone on reddit said something that stuck out in my mind. "Being sober means being completely honest with yourself". And I think this applies here.

Losing my switch, and being able to regain it are all part and parcel of my personal journey with conquering alcoholism and becoming a better person. We are all pioneers here, so hopefully this information helps someone in a similar circumstance.

[kronkcarr]

For those who have lost the switch from drinking everyday - Baclofen

Hey neo,

I'm glad you're good. Thanks for your post.

Here's part of something I found that's pretty basic: http://www.hamsnetwork.org/dopamine.pdf I'll post more if I come across anything.

Moreover, the experimental evidence suggests that alcohol does not cause the increase in dopamine
directly. Rather, it appears that alcohol directly affects the GABA system and the endorphin system.
Neurons from the GABA system extend into the reward pathway and when alcohol affects the GABA system these neurons release dopamine into the reward pathway.
Likewise, neurons extend from the endorphin system into the reward pathway and these also release
dopamine into the reward pathway when alcohol directly stimulates the endorphin system (Boileau et al,
2003).

All things which give us pleasure, from a symphony to food to sex to drugs and alcohol, cause a release of dopamine in the reward pathway as well as triggering a number of other events in the brain including
endorphin release and activation of the orbitofrontal region of the prefrontal cortex.

Researchers from the 1950s who implanted electrodes into the reward pathway thought that they had discovered the pleasure center of the brain (Olds, 1956). However, research since then has demonstrated that pleasure is a far more complex phenomenon which involves many parts of the brain.
Contemporary researchers believe that pleasure has several components such as "liking," "wanting,"
"learning (pavlovian conditioning)," "reward," and "valuation" (Berridge and Kringelbach, 2008).

Many researchers currently believe that dopamine in the reward pathway is involved in the phenomena of "wanting," "learning," and "reward," but that it is not involved "liking" or "valuation." In other words, the dopamine in the reward pathway may make you crave drugs or alcohol or sex or a symphony, and it may also reinforce habitual drug use, sex, or symphony listening, but it is not responsible for the pleasure you get from these activities .

The pleasure which we get from these things seems to involve neurotransmitters called endorphins
and to involve hedonic hot spots. Researchers identify the hedonic hot spots as existing in the Nucleus
Accumbens, Ventral Pallidum, and Parabrachial Nucleus.

You may recall that the Nucleus Accumbens is also a part of the reward pathway; this tells us that part of the Nucleus Accumbens is involved in "liking" and part of it is involved in "wanting." The orbitofrontal area of the prefrontal cortex is largely involved in the "valuation" of pleasurable stimuli.

[Lostinspace]

For those who have lost the switch from drinking everyday - Baclofen

Thank you very much for relating your experience, Neo. I haven't hit my switch yet, but feel I am very close, and could easily see myself starting to toy with it like this. I really appreciate the information - both that you can lose your switch and that you can get it back by forcing some AF time again. I will definitely keep that in mind.

And no need at all to be ashamed. I think lots of people have probably done this. Even in the absence of cravings, I could see that there's something very enticing about the idea of being able to drink normally, and just have a couple drinks, after feeling out of control and different from others for so many years. It's easy to see how this could turn into an everyday thing. I'm glad you found your switch again

[spiritwolf333]

For those who have lost the switch from drinking everyday - Baclofen

neophyte;1691658 wrote: Thanks everyone, actually I'm not sure what spurred me to have the confidence to write this out. I was ashamed, I felt like I failed myself in that I got an easy way out of the addiction to alcoholism, after it had taken so much from me; and then here I was, throwing it away.

I have been a vocal advocate of baclofen as a cure to alcoholism, so I felt like I wasn't practising what I preach and thus a hypocrite. Analogous to a right wing politician spouting anti drug rhetoric whilst consuming drugs on the weekends away from public eye

I remember someone on reddit said something that stuck out in my mind. "Being sober means being completely honest with yourself". And I think this applies here.

Losing my switch, and being able to regain it are all part and parcel of my personal journey with conquering alcoholism and becoming a better person. We are all pioneers here, so hopefully this information helps someone in a similar circumstance.

Hi Neo -your following paragraph hit a nerve (in fact your entire post did):

Per Neo: "Thanks everyone, actually I'm not sure what spurred me to have the confidence to write this out. I was ashamed, I felt like I failed myself in that I got an easy way out of the addiction to alcoholism, after it had taken so much from me; and then here I was, throwing it away."

I too, experienced this same exact experience and thought process -twice. More than anything else in the world, I was ashamed and very disappointed in myself for knowingly drinking beyond Baclofen's prior gifts to me. And, there was not a chance in hell that I was going to tell on myself to others. Lack of courage and an ongoing challenge to jave the ability to ask for help prevented from doing so.

Back in the program days, I always remembered the following:

"Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give themselves to this simple program, usually men and women who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves. There are such unfortunates. They are not at fault; they seem to have been born that way. They are naturally incapable of grasping and developing a manner of living which demands rigorous honesty. Their chances are less than average. There are those, too, who suffer from grave emotional and mental disorders, but many of them do recover if they have the capacity to be honest."

I have always been able and insisted in being honest with other people -but not myself. Thank you for helping to remind myself of this fact.

After both post baclofen drinking failures, I was able to fairly quickly get back on the sober track (2 weeks). This does not mean that it was easy. I very easily recognized that this could get even more out of hand if not stopped -quickly.

Again, thanks for the thread.

[spiritwolf333]

For those who have lost the switch from drinking everyday - Baclofen

kronkcarr;1691771 wrote: Hey neo,

I'm glad you're good. Thanks for your post.

Here's part of something I found that's pretty basic: http://www.hamsnetwork.org/dopamine.pdf I'll post more if I come across anything.

Great research-explanation paper -Kronk. If you don't mind. I am going to post it on one my threads for my future reference? If you would rather me not do so, let me know and I will erase my post. Thanks

[Samandkatharine]

For those who have lost the switch from drinking everyday - Baclofen

spiritwolf333;1691801 wrote: Hi Neo -your following paragraph hit a nerve (in fact your entire post did):

Per Neo: "Thanks everyone, actually I'm not sure what spurred me to have the confidence to write this out. I was ashamed, I felt like I failed myself in that I got an easy way out of the addiction to alcoholism, after it had taken so much from me; and then here I was, throwing it away."

I too, experienced this same exact experience and thought process -twice. More than anything else in the world, I was ashamed and very disappointed in myself for knowingly drinking beyond Baclofen's prior gifts to me. And, there was not a chance in hell that I was going to tell on myself to others. Lack of courage and an ongoing challenge to jave the ability to ask for help prevented from doing so.

Back in the program days, I always remembered the following:

"Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give themselves to this simple program, usually men and women who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves. There are such unfortunates. They are not at fault; they seem to have been born that way. They are naturally incapable of grasping and developing a manner of living which demands rigorous honesty. Their chances are less than average. There are those, too, who suffer from grave emotional and mental disorders, but many of them do recover if they have the capacity to be honest."

I have always been able and insisted in being honest with other people -but not myself. Thank you for helping to remind myself of this fact.

After both post baclofen drinking failures, I was able to fairly quickly get back on the sober track (2 weeks). This does not mean that it was easy. I very easily recognized that this could get even more out of hand if not stopped -quickly.

Again, thanks for the thread.

2 weeks back on Bac and I'm up to 60mg and increasing to 70 today. One glass of wine last night and it started to have that funky taste.

Like Spirit stated, the switch may come sooner the second time around. I hope so.

Sam

[Fred_The_Cat]

For those who have lost the switch from drinking everyday - Baclofen

Hey Neo,

Exactly as you said- drinking every day, even in small or moderate amounts, will erode your switch. It does not seem to be a linear progression either- you lose it bit by bit and before you know it you're smacked upside the head.

I never had to resort to Antabuse, but the only way to restore indifference is forced alcohol free time.

For information purposes, what was your switch/maintenance dose?

[dopey]

For those who have lost the switch from drinking everyday - Baclofen

campral

Hi i am very new here.Old at drinking new at this site.I would like your feedback on campral for cravings.I currently take paxi for agoraphobia.so when i do decide to quit i will up that.However I do have 2 bottles fo campral. I am just so scared of the side effects.

[YouKayBee]

For those who have lost the switch from drinking everyday - Baclofen

I ignored that bit of AA. Took from it lots of other stuff, bit of pick and mix for me!

Posting your experience is really useful neo, for everyone.

I have noticed some real similarities in recovery between TSM using Naltrexone and HDB. Neither are a quick fix.

One of the reasons I quit drinking alcohol completely was because I didn't want to risk any sort of readdiction, or having to go through the deaddicting process again - but that's right what you are doing and fair play to you.

[Samandkatharine]

For those who have lost the switch from drinking everyday - Baclofen

Hi Dopey(seven dwarfs?)

Do a search on this site and you will find answers, or even better start a new thread. I've never tried Campral.

Sam

[YouKayBee]

For those who have lost the switch from drinking everyday - Baclofen

Samandkatharine;1692598 wrote: Hi Dopey(seven dwarfs?)

Do a search on this site and you will find answers, or even better start a new thread. I've never tried Campral.

Sam

I have experience with Campral, yes there are threads in this section about it.

My quick answer is that I didn't notice much, it is supposed to work only with abstenance and the only real side effect is GI disturbance ie you might get a bit rumbly and farty. Apart from that it's way down the scale for side effects of anti-craving drugs.