Maybe Its a Marketing Problem

[spiritwolf333]

Maybe Its a Marketing Problem

Wow Molly -thoughtful comments. I am 99% confident that the French trial results will be overwhelmingly positive. Furthermore, I am 100% confident that the USA FDA will move quickly to finally approve Baclofen as a medication for alcoholism -in some form. I am also excited about the fact that companies are working on variants of Baclofen that will lessen the initial side effects -resulting in what I hope to be a more efficient and effective solution for the majority of alcoholics. All the work that you and others have put into promoting Baclofen is about to begin paying dividends. To me, this entire movement with Dr. Koob and the French study is unimaginably the best news news for alcoholics since the first meeting that Bill W. held. It's all about hope for those that suffer.

[Rand all]

Maybe Its a Marketing Problem

I'm not so confident. I don't live in the US but you guys have a LOT more obstacles that the likes of the French and to a lesser extent the rest of Europe do. I believe the US drug business is 99% money driven and there is no money in Baclofen. Your country is also is deeply ingrained in the AA/Rehab (I have to laugh at the rehab culture in the US) and to a lesser extend Christian fundamentalists who have a lot of power and still believe alcoholism isn't really a disease as such. Good luck to you, I think its gonna be a long road.

Money talks and there seen to be a LOT of money being made from addiction of all sorts in the states.

I live in Ireland and I can honestly say that I don't know of ANYONE who had been to rehab. I know more alcoholic that non alcoholic and I know a my fair share of drug addicts (heroin included) Rehab just isn't part of the "culture" over here. As far as I know. Partly as the NHS wouldn't fund most of it and for good reason in my book as most from what I understand the success rate is shocking.

State funded heroin on the NHS or the US equivalent would stop almost all crime imo. Baclofen or similar once finally taken serious would save the health services of each country billions.

That turned into a bit of rant...Sorry.

[Molly78]

Maybe Its a Marketing Problem

Don't be sorry, Rand all. I agree with all of that. The US drug business is totally money driven, & I find it difficult to believe that someone like spirit who has a lot of sensible things to say seems to approve of that. I think we (I'm in UK) just don't understand why people in the US also tolerate the privatisation of health care. There are so many sad posts on this forum from people in the US who can't afford care. The NHS will just LOVE baclofen once it gets the message, it will save the government trillions. In the US, however, all the rehab places will go out of business, & Big Pharma will resist the use of a generic drug which costs peanuts. Tough on them, but lucky for us - if, & when, it finally happens!

[Rand all]

Maybe Its a Marketing Problem

Didn't know you where from this side of the pond Molly. I hold out no great hope for the states unless they patent a new version. The whole drug culture sickens me in the US. The rehab/AA scene holds why to much power. Even the alcohol industry. In Europe the alcohol industry wouldn't have f**k to say if baclofen hits big. The French government make millions on wine tax and hadn't much to say about baclofen. Health trumps business in my eyes even when moneys concerned apart from it seems the states sadly

[Molly78]

Maybe Its a Marketing Problem

"Health trumps business in my eyes"

Definitely. The poor struggling NHS gets that right anyway. At the moment. Privatisation is heading our way.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Maybe Its a Marketing Problem

I am shocked that you guys don't "do" rehab. And surprised that I didn't know it! Wow. All of the things you mentioned, Randall, do make a huge difference in our understanding and application of treatment for this disease. On the other hand, it's a mulligan--a fresh start button. When you come out of rehab, people assume it worked and that now you're fixed and you can just move on with life. I had a friend in the UK who didn't have anywhere to go to get his life back together and those 30 days would have given him a new perspective. At least for a little while, because of course, rehab doesn't work. At all. Ever. So I suppose I'm contradicting myself. It is hard to imagine that there are places where rehab and AA aren't the primary resources! So silly of me and us to think that.

I agree, too, that our religiosity is a big barrier, especially in certain regions of the country. The irony is that AA, which could be and should be on the forefront of all of this, reinforces the ideas that it's a will power and higher power problem.

Can anyone begin to imagine what it would be like if AA was an organization that was actually working for alcoholics? I think it's probably the most widespread grass roots organization in the world. Imagine what it would be like if it was a lobbying or for-profit organization. (I shudder to think. On the other hand, it is. Hazelden...) Or imagine that it didn't stop working toward the goal of curing alcoholics in the mid-1900s. Just imagine it.

[Rand all]

Maybe Its a Marketing Problem

There is counseling that your GP refers you to Ne after he determines that your problem needs dealt with but "rehab" as such isn't really like what you have in the states. We do have it but its for the more upwardly mobile. Things like the priory where celebs go to "recuperate" for want of a better word. From what I also gather rehab and AA go hand i hand in the US. so your at a disadvantage right off the bat. Even in the UK when you go into a hospital detox its not like the US where your automatically put straight into a 30 day program. (I presume that's what mostly happens) Its more along the the lines of counselling with maybe some group therapy but you not drilled with the AA "reprogramming" as a must.

Last time I was speaking with my GP getting some Librium for a detox he wanted to refer to the the counselor next door in the drug and alcohol abuse center. I said to him "its not any of that AA carry on is it" to which he replied "no its just a one on one chat about how we might get a plan on the go on how to get you on the mend" I knocked him back and no more was said of the matter. I've been with him through thick and thin. Drug induced trips to the hospital and more Librium detoxes than I care to remember. I wish I had have taken him up as a chat can always help and can't usually do any harm.

Maybe next time but I hope I'm finally on the mend.

[spiritwolf333]

Maybe Its a Marketing Problem

Molly78;n2512443 wrote: Don't be sorry, Rand all. I agree with all of that. The US drug business is totally money driven, & I find it difficult to believe that someone like spirit who has a lot of sensible things to say seems to approve of that. I think we (I'm in UK) just don't understand why people in the US also tolerate the privatisation of health care. There are so many sad posts on this forum from people in the US who can't afford care. The NHS will just LOVE baclofen once it gets the message, it will save the government trillions. In the US, however, all the rehab places will go out of business, & Big Pharma will resist the use of a generic drug which costs peanuts. Tough on them, but lucky for us - if, & when, it finally happens!

Hi Molly and Rand - I almost have to agree with you both about how it really would be a good thing if drug research and manufacturing were not so driven by money and politics. However, I would like to suggest that there is something to the idea of creating a drug that is needed and selling it at a profit. This idea seems to drive much research and production in the field of medical technology and in advancing the entire field of healthcare. If we look at the world today, most new drugs are created by researchers and pharmaceutical companies in the United States (7 out of 12 companies). The other companies are in countries that promote capitalism as well.

When I look at the whole picture, I try to have an open mind and I try to be open to understanding the reality of what motivates some people to create -and often times, material incentives seem to work . Also, although I am not a current member of AA, and I don't necessarily agree with all of their principles, I try and remember that there is no cost for someone to be a member and that they have helped millions of alcoholics in the world. And Molly, as far as healthcare costs go in the USA and access to medication, it is sad to say that it is very expensive. However, on the other hand, I also have to look at the fact that everyone in the USA has access to medical care and medications. There is a lot of free healthcare here in the states for many and that is one of the reasons the cost of insurance for others is so expensive. Regardless of all things mentioned, I am thankful that no person here in the USA can be denied healthcare -regardless of circumstances.

[Rand all]

Maybe Its a Marketing Problem

Couple of points I'd like to make. I totally agree that its drug companies that fuel the advance in health care and technology. They've gotta make a profit theres no denying it. Its when it comes to psych meds it were it becomes a bit of a grey area IMO. There's WAY to many antidepressants on the market with some just being recycled. Its totally wrong and nothing but money driven. There's no care for peoples well being at all.

Regarding the US healthcare system I once again lean towards the psychiatric side of things. You guys get WAY to many drugs pushed on you. Again all money driven. Its a culture thing I think you'll never get out of. The UK is probably going the same way along with other European countries but they've some way to go yet.

My biggest grip I have with the US system is giving drugs to kids. Its just so wrong. Antidepressants and shit like aderall to pre teen kids is so f**led up it would be comical if it wasn't so f**ked up. When I was a kid I was so quite and introverted I think in horror at what I might have been put on.

I really do believe that some disorders are made up to sell more drugs. Antidepressants for anxiety being one..... Marketing master stoke.

Advertising psych drugs on TV... WTF!?!

[Cassander]

Maybe Its a Marketing Problem

Hi Rand all. Welcome (yet again) to the forum. I would make the observation that the emphasis and predeliction in the US for prescribing SSRIs and benzos for depression and anxiety seems to me a bandaid, at best. Benzos and SSRIs may (or may not) alleviate -temporarily- the symptoms of anxiety and depression, but they do nothing to deal with the underlying causes. Which causes may be any number of things -- past personal trauma or abuse, relationship conflicts, bad job, financial problems, etc. I think its a crazy way to live. Cassander

[Rand all]

Maybe Its a Marketing Problem

Your right cassander. No one seems to have any time for anyone these days. Its just all... Here's a pill.. It'll make it all better. Id like to reiterate that I'm not having a dig at the US health care in general... Its there approach to mental health care I find alarming. With mental illness a lot of the time doctors/psychiatrists are just taking a shot in the dark as in general a mental illness is a lot of the time to pin down what's actually wrong. This a green light to use patient's basically as Guinea pigs. Most folk have total faith in there health care professionals and wouldn't think twice about maybe asking questions about the downsides the for mentioned drugs might have.

One thing I forgot to mention is the pain you get prescribed in the states. Things like Oxycodone are unheard of over here. You'd need to literally on you death bed to get that scripted. My dad had cancer and was scripted DHC, slightly stronger version of codeine. Vicodin/Percocet seems to be scripted for mild to moderate pain in the US. I got my nose broke and was given a couple of co codemol to take home in the ER!


Sorry for going off topic, its a subject that really grinds my gears

[spiritwolf333]

Maybe Its a Marketing Problem

Hi rand and cass -good points. I do now personally believe that most of medicine is a big money game. I further believe that it is able to exist this way because it operates on the FEAR that we humans naturally have. It does seem obvious that people take advantage of people that are in fear and/or in pain.

Another point that I would like to offer is the fact that we are just now truly beginning to understand and know how the brain functions. We are still far away from knowing all the answers. I believe the biggest challenge in helping people with mental health challenges is (and has been) the fact that we have just not known how to do so -at least chemically speaking. So, perhaps we have done the best we can, and in doing so, others have stepped in the loop and taken huge advantage ($) of people who are full of fear and are desperate.

When all is said and done, at the end of the day, I believe that their are many people -the 'unknowns' -that are hoping beyond hope and working tirelessly day to day, to come up with real medical solutions to help others.

[Spiritfree]

Hello Spirit

I do wish you would clarify your position on baclofen once and for all so that the shouting would die down. If someone asked me, I would say that (1) you are a good guy, that you mean well and you are most definitely not a troll, (2) you were a late stage, pretty desperate, afraid you had run out of chances drunk, (3) you found baclofen and it worked for you and you are extraordinarily grateful, (4) you believe baclofen 'works', but you are aware that the SEs of baclofen are (or seem to be) intolerable for some (especially if they keep drinking while titrating up), and (5) while you agree that the discovery of baclofen is a huge discovery for which Dr Amiesen deserves huge credit, you wish that the governments and the pharma companies would more aggressively and more publicly search for additional compounds which do what baclofen seems to do, but without the SEs. Is this about right?

As far as who is the market for the baclofen message, I'm as frustrated as anybody. I came here over three years ago (I can't remember whether I had already read OA's book or not) and as I watched baclofen miraculously stem my son's binge drinking and read the success stories of others I quickly became a believer. Since then I have shared the frustration of virtually everybody who understands what baclofen has shown it can do for hundreds, if not thousands, of alcoholics but somehow has not become mainstream. I guess if I just lead with my heart I would say that baclofen needs a rich altruistic patron who will finance the double-blind study in the US that is necessary for mainstream approval. I had thought the cost of a study is only about $1 million, but even if its a few million, its a pittance compared to the cost to alcoholics and their families and victims of alcoholism and the budgets of...pick any one of the following: (1) the big beer and booze companies, (2) the National Institute of Health, (3) any one of ten or twenty Big Pharma companies, (4) the American Medical Association, (5) any number of automobile and health insurance companies which are currently paying out for alcohol-related claims, (6) Mothers Against Drunk Driving, and I have probably only scratched the surface.

Like you and some others I had high hopes that George Koob would initiate baclofen legitimization studies at the National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism when he recently became director. He is on record as having praised the work done by Olivier Ameisen and his professional background acknowledges the promise in medical treatment of alcoholism. The fact that he has made no public statements (to my knowledge) on the subject is mystifying and hugely disheartening. On my bleak-outlook days I simply wonder if there isn't an enormous conspiracy, because the whole thing makes no sense.

With best wishes to all who continue to come this little corner of the Internet looking for information and support. Baclofen works.

Cassander

Cass, this is a great thread -imo. I had forgotten.
Thanks -
--sf--

[Molly78]

Big Pharma wouldn't like a cheap generic to become the "cure" for alcoholism. They are probably paying a lot of money to various people to suppress the information about baclofen. Meanwhile, they are working quickly behind the scenes to develop a patented version of baclofen they can make billions from. Watch out for arbaclofen breaking upon the scene at any moment now.......

[Spiritfree]

Big Pharma wouldn't like a cheap generic to become the "cure" for alcoholism. They are probably paying a lot of money to various people to suppress the information about baclofen. Meanwhile, they are working quickly behind the scenes to develop a patented version of baclofen they can make billions from. Watch out for arbaclofen breaking upon the scene at any moment now.......

Molly- as of this writing, I just found out that the NIH has stopped the funding for extended release baclofen. This is shameful in my opinion. Even though the extended release version of baclofen could be patent-able and it seems as though there are some who do not want it to proceed forward (and this group blocking the extended release have nothing to do with baclofen for alcoholism). As far as arbaclofen, I hope that you are right.

My wife teaches children with autism and any/all new potential medications to help these children is welcome. (It is heartbreaking to sit in a classroom with autistic children -if for just one hour. This experience can/will change your life). How grand it will be if it also helps people with AUD as well.

http://autismsciencefoundation.org/news/next-chapter-arbaclofen-story-new-findings-animal-studies