Changing Course: From Bac to Nal (TSM)

[Hudstar]

Hi MWO's and apologies for having gone a bit silent for many weeks, especially after your warm welcome after my updates about my early baclofen experience.

Thread 'Half way on Bac'

I'll just rip off the band aid and come straight out with it. After an astonishing change brought about by 150mg of baclofen I enjoyed about four weeks of real, blissful indifference to Al. It felt like going back in time 20 years. But then it happened. One weekend I was home alone and then the old 'voice' surfaced. You know the one. The one that says 'see, you're okay now. Have a little drink'. I did and as night follows day, and as alcoholics ever fall into the same old trap, it began a ten day bender as dark as any I've had.

(I was actually a little ashamed to come back here and report that. How soon I forget that recovery is a twisted road, with all its ups and downs, victories and defeats.)

When it abated I had to take stock. I concluded that I had only experienced a 'honeymoon' period with baclofen but that I had to commit to increasing my dose until... well, until what? Another three months on top of the three before of further titration with all the same grimy side effects (that did wear off)? Hit 200mg? 250? 300? And what after that? A lifetime of popping pills?

To cut a long story short, inspired by the new possibilities that pharmacology presents for treating this horrible affliction of mine/ours, I researched the Sinclair Method, Dr Eskapa's book 'The Cure for Alcoholism' and the film 'One Little Pill' and naltrexone.

I'd heard of the method before but that was back in the days when I was still conditioned by AA to mistrust medicine to help with addiction. Now, with my eyes opened, the science makes so much sense to me. The fact that it has been rigorously trialled and has been approved only helped further. (I hope baclofen will achieve the same approval but my feelings are that it needs a lot of refinement).

I wrote to Dr Chick and he prescribed it and I have been taking naltrexone for two weeks, slowing titrating down from baclofen. So far I can feel a difference when I drink and can finish far sooner. This is good. But following the book and the advice I've seen in this forum I know it's a commitment of months. And then a lifetime.

Which doesn't frighten me at all. If I can lose the addiction over several months, lose the compulsion to drink - even if I DO drink! - and only have to take one silly, amazing little pill should I choose to drink again, well. There's no contest. I hope to come to think of it like contraception. Like drinking 'with protection'.

So these are my thoughts and a little update since my last posts. As ever I'm so impressed and grateful for the experiences I read here.

Wish you all well in your recovery - whatever form that takes.

Hud

[YouKayBee]

Hi Hudstar

Wow, this is interesting.

Are you aware that I too tried baclofen before starting nal as per TSM prescribed by Dr Chick?

You say you are following the book, and from seeing you type "couple of months" I'd like to make sure you are aware of one major discrepancy.

Most people using TSM find that the cure time quoted in the book is not accurate. The book gives 3 months as the timescale for TSM to work. Now from speaking to others I know who have used TSM it would seem this is a very ambitious time period. Most TSmers seem to take 6-12 months to reach complete success.

This however doesn't mean that you won't notice any difference in that time.

TSM halved my session intake right from day one.

Another observation is that the pill doesn't do the whole job, the person has to be motivated to change their habits.

The way I look upon it is that the pill takes away the physical dependency, however humans have higher reasoning than rats and humans can over ride physical drive and defy logic.

Only the person can stop putting the glass to their mouth.

Now that doom and gloom is out of the way I can say that when it works TSM can and does work beautifully.

It changes the way alcohol is viewed and allows you to chose whether you want to drink or not.

After 27 months on TSM, 22 of which were moderating or hardly drinking at all, I decided to quit and go AF. I have not had a single alcoholic drink for the best part of two years and my two year AF anniversary is fast approaching.

[Hudstar]

Thanks UKB.

I'm glad you piped up as I've devoured almost all your threads on TSM and found them hugely informative and encouraging. Thank you for all you've shared and huge congratulations for coming up on 2 years.

I didn't however allude to a couple of months, in fact I completely accept that the three to four months outlined in the book is probably very optimistic. Not unlike Dr Amiesen's rather 'rosy' descriptions of baclofen. No matter how well-intended, the reality for most people is quite challenging. But hell, isn't AUD?

No I'm quite prepared to let naltrexone do it's quiet work on me, for as long as it takes, all the while examining my feelings to alcohol as I go along. I can already feel myself acting out some nights, by which I mean when nal is muting my cravings, I'm acting out the habit of drinking almost for its own sake. A bit silly, I know, but useful information. Hey, that's an addict for you.

[Lostinspace]

Hi Hudstar. I wish you the best in this new path you’re taking. I know sometimes the side effects of bac (or the sheer cost of it) make it undesirable to go up to the dose you need for indifference. If that’s not for you, that’s fine. I hope your naltrexone experience gives you everything you’re looking for. It has worked wonderfully for other people. Please keep us updated. We’ve been wondering where you are. And never let a drunken episode keep you from posting here. My god! This isn’t like AA, and we’re not the sobriety police. If you fall along your way, we all understand. It’s just nice to see you here, and to hear your updates, whatever they might be

[guapo]

Hi.

Like UKB, TSM and mindset changes have taken me to a point that AL is not a problem whatsoever. Unlike her, I still drink a wee bit now and again, and love the sense of having sovereignty over how to use alcohol.

My typical month consists of taking 25 mg of NAL 3 or 4 times, and that's plenty

Mindlessly pounding down intoxicating ( think loss of control, stupidity, potentially fatal consequences etc) mind numbing poison daily defies logic or reason. Its now an optional indulgence, but even that has lost its allure. All GOOD !!!

If there's a better way to extricate oneself from the hell of pointless addiction (and I don't count forced abstinence with the unrelenting cravings, counting days, and terror of the likely relapse as a viable or desirable solution), I cannot imagine what it would be

The reason TSM works, is because you are happy and do not want to drink, not sad and frustrated because you cannot !!

You're on a good path. Baclofen sounds great for those who can deal with the daily pills, titrating, side effects, etc. TSM simplifies that dramatically.

Good luck !

[YouKayBee]

Hi.

Like UKB, TSM and mindset changes have taken me to a point that AL is not a problem whatsoever. Unlike her, I still drink a wee bit now and again, and love the sense of having sovereignty over how to use alcohol.

My typical month consists of taking 25 mg of NAL 3 or 4 times, and that's plenty

Mindlessly pounding down intoxicating ( think loss of control, stupidity, potentially fatal consequences etc) mind numbing poison daily defies logic or reason. Its now an optional indulgence, but even that has lost its allure. All GOOD !!!

If there's a better way to extricate oneself from the hell of pointless addiction (and I don't count forced abstinence with the unrelenting cravings, counting days, and terror of the likely relapse as a viable or desirable solution), I cannot imagine what it would be

The reason TSM works, is because you are happy and do not want to drink, not sad and frustrated because you cannot !!

You're on a good path. Baclofen sounds great for those who can deal with the daily pills, titrating, side effects, etc. TSM simplifies that dramatically.

Good luck !

I sometimes have gotten a bit cross and angry because I know other people are out drinking, they can do that to relax and get away from the stresses of life HOWEVER I don't actually want to drink AND I feel proud I can live without alcohol or any other mind altering drug (my recovery doesn't involve any other medication and I don't smoke tobacco).

Sorry I misread you Hudstar and I'm glad you've found inspiration from my journey. I don't intend to ram TSM or even promote it, I just want people to find their way out - but most importantly to be honest with themselves.

It sounds like you are off to a very good start.

[guapo]

HUD, , I understand this forum is more baclofen oriented, but I was just giving you an opinion on TSM For what it's worth.

I will say though, that knowing what I know now, I would certainly take the same path, but I know that the bulk of the behavior change came from precisely that, changing behavior, and not a medication.

[Stevo]

Glad to see you back Hudstar and I wish you all the best on this new leg of your journey.

[*Thomas]

Looking back, I'd was more happy with TSM than with Bac. I had a honeymoon period like yourself on Bac but then started drinking through it. I was taking up to 250mg of Bac and drinking like a fish. I'd didn't know who owned me! I can handle most drugs quite well but Bac is not to be messed with. I was like a walking zombie. I'd advise anyone starting it to start a course of Antabuse at the same time. Drinking with HDB is nasty.

TSM worked from the get go but you need to have a plan and remember why your doing it. What I didn't like about TSM is that drinking on it is just a waste of time as the buzz wasn't there but I still done it anyway hence getting browned off with it and dropping it. If I was gonna drink anyway, I wanted that feeling. I did stop me binge drinking as I just couldn't drink as much and got bored. Like said above by youkaybee, my units halved over night.

[neophyte]

ever thought about combining bac and nal?

[YouKayBee]

Looking back, I'd was more happy with TSM than with Bac. I had a honeymoon period like yourself on Bac but then started drinking through it. I was taking up to 250mg of Bac and drinking like a fish. I'd didn't know who owned me! I can handle most drugs quite well but Bac is not to be messed with. I was like a walking zombie. I'd advise anyone starting it to start a course of Antabuse at the same time. Drinking with HDB is nasty.

TSM worked from the get go but you need to have a plan and remember why your doing it. What I didn't like about TSM is that drinking on it is just a waste of time as the buzz wasn't there but I still done it anyway hence getting browned off with it and dropping it. If I was gonna drink anyway, I wanted that feeling. I did stop me binge drinking as I just couldn't drink as much and got bored. Like said above by youkaybee, my units halved over night.

I'd agree with this. Naltrexone really can make alcohol very dull, however as already mentioned there are people doing TSM who are still drinking heavily. They do often report lack of cravings which would suggest that it is still up to the person what they decide to do.

For me I wanted to sort the problem alcohol was causing me so if that meant removing the enjoyment, then that was fine with me - alcohol was going to kill me and nearly had several times. It was wrecking my life and my relationships. I'd rather have a life and relationships than enjoy alcohol.

Some like Guapo are ok drinking every so often, but I eventually decided to make things simple!

Saying goodbye to alcohol which appears to be a good friend is however very difficult, but it is very possible. I would ask how much do you want to change, have you had enough yet.

[Hudstar]

"For me I wanted to sort the problem alcohol was causing me so if that meant removing the enjoyment, then that was fine with me - alcohol was going to kill me and nearly had several times. It was wrecking my life and my relationships. I'd rather have a life and relationships than enjoy alcohol.

"Some like Guapo are ok drinking every so often, but I eventually decided to make things simple!

Saying goodbye to alcohol which appears to be a good friend is however very difficult, but it is very possible. I would ask how much do you want to change, have you had enough yet."

-----------------------------------------

Thanks all. For me I think it's important to define what 'enjoyment' of alcohol really means. I can think of about two things I enjoy about alcohol and about two dozen things I really, really don't enjoy.

What do I enjoy? Alcohol lets me go numb, let's me go to a safe place where all of life's troubles melt away. For a bit. It used to give me courage around other people, but for the last ten years of addiction most of my drinking has been private and in the shadows so it doesn't really apply anymore.

The horror, guilt, sickness, shame, anxiety and slavery; they're just some of the many things that I despise about alcohol - or more specifically, my alcoholism/AUD.

Ultimately, I believe that the 'enjoyment' an addict gets from their substance is probably little more than relief. My drinking has hardwired me to the point that little else is as superficially rewarding as booze, so therein lies the appeal and hope of TSM for me: Erode the malfunctioning reward centre of drinking, over time, and relearn to enjoy life.

'Course, still early days for me, but if UKB, guapo and others can attest to that then its something to hold on to.

[kronkcarr]

Thanks all. For me I think it's important to define what 'enjoyment' of alcohol really means. I can think of about two things I enjoy about alcohol and about two dozen things I really, really don't enjoy.

What do I enjoy? Alcohol lets me go numb, let's me go to a safe place where all of life's troubles melt away. For a bit. It used to give me courage around other people, but for the last ten years of addiction most of my drinking has been private and in the shadows so it doesn't really apply anymore.

The horror, guilt, sickness, shame, anxiety and slavery; they're just some of the many things that I despise about alcohol - or more specifically, my alcoholism/AUD.

Ultimately, I believe that the 'enjoyment' an addict gets from their substance is probably little more than relief. My drinking has hardwired me to the point that little else is as superficially rewarding as booze, so therein lies the appeal and hope of TSM for me: Erode the malfunctioning reward centre of drinking, over time, and relearn to enjoy life.

'Course, still early days for me, but if UKB, guapo and others can attest to that then its something to hold on to.

I agree with you. Alcohol made me numb to all the stresses and emotions I thought I couldn't handle. It also made me more comfortable and less anxious at gatherings and then I realized that mainly I drank at home alone.

[YouKayBee]

Yes one feeling I have had during my reduced drinking and AF time is lack of relief, I have to live 24/7/365 in cold sobriety. There is no relief. There can be temporary relief in hobbies and exercise. I am always very relaxed after I've trained for the sport I participate in.

[Stevo]

The no relief thing is the problem with complete abstinence.The reason just about anyone drinks or takes drugs or does anything that seems to quiet their minds is to find relief from the world that we live in.I had some great times in abstinence but it also became somewhat of its own type of nightmare which is why I decided that being able to have a drink on occasion was the best way for me to go.
This being said everybody has their own reasons for making the choices and decisions for that they do.For me though I found that the enthusiasm to remain completely abstinent diminished at around the 2 year mark and I was left questioning why I really wanted this so much.Everbody else was allowed to get a little relief,why couldn't I?
I think in the beginning of sobriety or recovery the goal is very clear and that is to remain AF no matter what with the hope that over time things will get better.
With time that goal seems less important and I found that in the end it was not that important at all.I am one of the lucky ones who has truly hit the switch with Baclofen and I know that this isn't possible for all.This is the only reason that I can now have a drink when I decide to safely,but for me it has freed me from the nightmare that abstinence had become.
We live in a day and age where it is extremely stressful to be a part the human race and I truly believe that a bit of relief is what everybody is looking for,whether they drink,take drugs or do yoga.
I was(I once thought)a hopeless alcoholic who would drink himself to death,I even welcomed the idea.I spent 2 years abstinent up until recently and I had done 5 years 10 years prior to that through AA.In the early days of putting a drink down abstinence seems paramount but eventually loses its shine and this is why there is relapse on such a grand scale.
There has to be some relief somewhere.

I know nothing of TSM but do understand Naltrexone a little and wish anyone using whatever method for recovery that they may be using all the best.I just thought I would chime in with these thoughts when I read that the subject of relief was being discussed.