I'm leaving My Way Out

[lex]

dundrinkn- I didn't say anything about anybody seeking, or not seeking, "freedom." I said I doubt a forum is sustainable if half the members are seeking abstinence and the other half are do not.

[lex]

"Freedom" is an abstract, subjective state of mind. "Abstinence" is a concrete, objective state of body.

Sorry to say it, dd, but "freedom" is the kind of word folks in denial are likely to get tangled up in. Truly sorry to say it, dd, and I wish you all the best, but hey it doesn't take a phd to see the truth in this, does it?

If you don't or can't quit drinking- I get that. But please, for your own sake you must keep trying to be as honest with yourself about it as you can be.

[dundrinkn]

I wish you the best, Lex. No denial here. Have just lived in reality a very very long time and have seen the vast majority of abstainers fail. I spent 9 years in the rooms. The turn over is stunning. Looking for something else.

[MeJustMe]

The only things I will say further on this discussion is firstly by anyone replying to Spirit's posts they are just providing entertainment for him, and adding fuel to the fire. Nothing is gained for anyone here or the newcomer to this forum. All they will see is the friction. Let the tumbleweeds roll past Spirit's posts and the message will be clear; his posts are fractious at best.



As for the point about AF and continued drinking -- well, if you can continue to drink without cravings and it works, why not post about how it's going? It doesn't bother me as I hope my quest to not drink doesn't bother you. It should not be an issue.



I don't mean any offence to those who've responded to S by what I've said above, and frankly not everyone can leave the bait alone. Hell, I've just taken it

[dundrinkn]

Just drove home a carpool of sweaty, stinky 15 year old soccer players. Whew. But your comment about freedom being abstract stuck with me. You are right that abstinence is concrete because you're counting days while not drinking. One drink, that gets erased. My personal experience is that is devastating. Watching so many others hit that wall -- most don't rally back. And even if you abstain like I did for a really long time -- nine plus years -- that's over 3200 days of not drinking. One drink, BAM, you are back to zero. Try waking up from that and pulling yourself up by your boot straps.

Freedom is this -- maybe you take a drink, maybe you don't. Maybe you count days, maybe you don't. But whatever happens, you maintain equilibrium. You don't take a drink and trigger an avalanche of craving. An avalanche of shame and consternation. You just wake up and its another day. That's not so abstract. Elusive perhaps. So is happiness. So is love. So are a lot of things worth pursuing.

Your path of abstaining is a noble one. Many have taken it. It is very, very hard to maintain. Just take a look over at the threads in the other section. People count days. Many start over at one point or another. Many, many more just disappear. What I will say about folks on this med thread is they are long-term fighters. Maybe they've had ups and downs. But they're still here (or were until the last day or so) trying to figure their own way out. I admire folks that can and do abstain. And I don't take anything away from them when they "slip." Ouch, I say. Because I know the sting.

My guess is that I've spent more time sober or not drinking then many here have drinking. Probably more time drinking too. Being older means you get to win a lot in these kinds of counting games. I honor that path. Been there, done that. It's just one I no longer choose to walk.

[Stevo]

Abstinence is only concrete if it is maintainable,for the vast majority it is a nightmare of its own and very much unattainable.The thought of busting for many is such a shameful and final thing especially when associated with 12 step fellowship dogma that most eventually realize that abstinence is not for them and they simply walk away(most of the time they are ridiculed by the abstainers as not working the program properly or it is said that they're just not strong enough) .The freedom that Dun wrote about is a beautiful place to be that does not involve ridiculous unachievable for most ideals such as a lifetime of cult like meetings and and no relief from the pressures that most peoples lives place on them.

I was 2 years abstinent when indifference kicked in for me and I flew in the face of the brainwashing I had received from AA and I chose to have a drink.Only months earlier my best friend killed himself due to the pressures of life becoming too much for him and being so brainwashed after 8 years of abstinence and 12 step meetings that the indoctrination told him that suicide was a better option than temporary relief.Abstinence at any cost huh?It cost him his life.I now drink like a normal drinker(that is what they would call it)and I can take it or leave it.I have AL in the house all the time and it doesn't phase me but most weekends I do choose to have a drink and guess what?My life has not been an uncontrolled descent into insanity and death,jails or institutions.This is what I would call a concrete freedom!

I truly believe that in time the idea of abstinence being recovery(which in itself is ridiculous)will be a casualty of modern medicine and moderation if that is what someone chooses will become the norm.

Seriously in my experience 90% of people that I know who have been abstinent for a fair period of time and who claim to be in recovery due to their abstinence are completely bonkers and deluded about their own state of well being.

I am pretty sure that the Big Book says that,"the obsession of every alcoholic is to one day be able to drink like normal people."

I would like to finish with this...I am in no way encouraging people to drink alcoholically,with the right medication(baclofen) the ability to take it or leave it can be achieved.I will say though that if someone believes that abstinence is so important that they cannot find any other solution to their nightmare existence than suicide,I do believe that having a drink is a much better option.



Just thought I would throw that out there.

[neophyte]

you can create private subreddits on reddit, no need for setting up a site or having to worry about moderation

[lex]

dundrinkn and stevo-

Yours were kind and thoughtful responses. I understand much of what you are saying; more importantly, I sure the hell know I have not been blessed with any unique insights on any of this.

For me, thus far at least abstinence does not seem to be such a big deal.

Which is a damn good thing, because I can see I won't be joining you folks in baclofen bliss. I can't get up past 30 mgs or so without very strange and frightening things happening to me- like having palpitations out of the blue and becoming so light-headed that I nearly pass out, like panic jolts just before I fall asleep (over and over again), like insomnia, weird internal shaking, and closed-eye hallucinations of fractal and lattice designs and/or random landscape scenes, etc.. All I can say is that the folks here who can clear even 100 mgs. a day most be real sports models. They are my heroes. I'm going back to milk and cookies, I guess.

Good luck to all.

[kronkcarr]

dundrinkn- I didn't say anything about anybody seeking, or not seeking, "freedom." I said I doubt a forum is sustainable if half the members are seeking abstinence and the other half are do not.

Up until spirit started posting abstinence as the only way we had no trouble with people in the meds section being abstinent or using TSM to moderate or baclofen to have a drink and not crave another. This section was quite lively. It seems counterproductive that I've found My Way Out and am happy and have a life I've never imagined and I'm told I am wrong and don't have it right.

This is not directed toward you, lex. Your post just brought this to mind.

[dundrinkn]

Lex. I don't remember what your exact dosage timetable was, but why don't you stick around at 30mg for a while. I thought you had trouble at 40? I would go down maybe 10 mg from whenever that side effect/panic thing started. See if that clears it up. Stay there for a bit. You aren't drinking (good on you!!!) so you don't have to hurry up. And maybe you really don't want to stay on it. But if you're interested in continuing on that road to see where it goes, just inch back down to where you don't have that SE anymore. Then inch very slowly up. maybe even 5 mg. every month. Just a thought. Appreciate you response above. I do get that you're enjoying not drinking and you deserve a huge pat on the back for it. It's a big deal. :welldone:

[kronkcarr]

This entire thread and concept is nothing more than a ploy to help others feel better about their continued drinking and the acceptance by others -all of whom are doing the same and just typing words, just as we all are. HUH?



You have a person who has been deeply depressed and non-communicative come back to the site and tell you just how bad the forum/site is because of one person and how they have come up with a great solution on their own: "start a site" where only friends who get 'along' (compromise in order to continue their own behavior) with each other can participate. If I've read the posts correctly the people moving elsewhere want to be comfortable to share their successes, their falls, or troubles--reality and do not feel comfortable with the comments you've made about them. They want discussion.



Dun/Ne and a few others: none of you are in a mental condition to be leading others down the road of sobriety, peace, and happiness. Please consider the well being of others and not just your own well being. I'm not sure why you feel qualified or even ok with making this comment. It's not true about me.



What a great idea, until one person in the group dies as a result of alcoholism/addiction. Well, of course, you can sit back and say "I tried to what I could do to help them, but it was to no avail". What a cruel nasty thing to say or think.



Believe it or not, you are on a site entitled "My Way Out". This is in direct reference to my way out of the hell of alcoholism (AUD). RJ does not specify what particular method one must or must not use to free themselves from cycle, she only says how she got out. RJ is/was opened minded enough to understand and realize that new and better medications were on the way to help resolve the alcohol/addiction mental disorder. She did not title the section of the forum that we are writing on "Baclofen and other medications that may help". Some how, some way, this part of the forum became a "Baclofen is the only solution" to AUD. I know I found my way out and it is not the way you keep telling me to go.



So, if you are truly new to the forum, do not become discouraged because of some of the recent posts/threads. Please realize that Baclofen is only a part of all of the new solutions (medically) that are available. Do not become discourage about Baclofen because of the posters who are still drinking and taking their Baclofen. Baclofen can and will help some, but it is NOT the magi pill that exclaim it to be.

kronk

[dundrinkn]

Spirit, you asked us to go the moderation thread. But we aren't here talking about moderating. We're here discussing MEDs. That's the section we are on. You are here advocating a strict, abstinence only policy. I suggest you go to the Army thread. But please, please, please, just go away. You've done nothing for anyone here. And probably harmed yourself in the process. Do you not see that? Go help a homeless person. I think you are passionate about your way. And I think you could really truly help people. But you aren't helping anyone here. Go out in the world and do good. Get off the computer. You come across very badly here.

[Spiritfree]

Spirit, you asked us to go the moderation thread. But we aren't here talking about moderating. We're here discussing MEDs. That's the section we are on. You are here advocating a strict, abstinence only policy. I suggest you go to the Army thread. But please, please, please, just go away. You've done nothing for anyone here. And probably harmed yourself in the process. Do you not see that? Go help a homeless person. I think you are passionate about your way. And I think you could really truly help people. But you aren't helping anyone here. Go out in the world and do good. Get off the computer. You come across very badly here.

Dundrinkin: I am respectfully requesting that you no longer refer to me or my writings in anything that you say or do. Unbeknownst to many on the forum, you made a post (and later deleted) that you wanted me dead or to die. Every since then, all of of your posts are being documented and all of your former posts have been recorded -and not by me.


Dun, please do not allow alcohol to continue to destroy your life. Seek and receive professional medical help before it is too late. Regardless, do not communicate with me in any form -including public posts.

Dun-your mental disorder may have now caused you to cross a line that you never intended to cross. Perhaps now, you will finally receive the medical help that you need and deserve.

[dundrinkn]

Spirit, you so funny! You can request whatever you like. This is cyber space lord of the flies. Your move.

[Xadrian]

She did not title the section of the forum that we are writing on "Baclofen and other medications that may help". Some how, some way, this part of the forum became a "Baclofen is the only solution" to AUD.

I'd like you to to the fact that the original med section (on the old forum) was titled: "Topamax, Campral, Naltrexone, Baclofen, other meds".

So, pretty similar to "Baclofen and other medications that may help"



Come again?