I'm leaving My Way Out

[dundrinkn]

guapo and lex. Thanks for posting. I am too tired to get into the nitty gritty of this or that. Here's what I will say. How many long term posters do you know who have a year AF, or 2? Five or ten? How much time do you have? If you fell off the wagon and decided to go try again, would you think it would be helpful to to have your attempts derided? To ridicule you and say "Wow dumb shit. It didn't work the last time, why would you keep banging your head against that wall?"

I have been there, done that, got the t-shirt and the chips (9 years worth) plus a basket full for shorter tries. Do I think you are are ridiculous for following a text/format a bunch of drunks wrote nearly a century ago and that a self-reported 90 + percent of the adherents fail to abide by? Maybe. But I applaud you for trying.

Back the fuck up and do the same for us on the MEDS thread. Remember that yours is a program of attraction, not promotion. Show me how great your life is. Tell me how awesome recovery is. But don't come over here and tell me what I should do. Because you really don't have the time, the cred, or the respect to do that. Tree tops might. But TT isn't promoting -- but attracting. That's the great thing about trees. They just ARE that way.

[Spiritfree]

Hi Spiritfree-



I too agree with much of what you post. However, I haven't had the time to try to get my arms around what the hell is going on with this meds thread. On the one hand, I think it is good for people who are unable or unwilling to quit (at least thus far) to have a place to discuss their experience with medications. On the other hand, I think it is ludicrous for people to keep posting about their continuing baclofen experiences--month after month after month after month--when they are still getting unhappily drunk regularly despite the baclofen!



At some point, don't you have to conclude the baclofen just plain doesn't work for you? Why keep experimenting with baclofen if it isn't working and instead you're still getting drunk (and worse yet, regretting it afterwards)? Say a person is depressed. She tries, say, prozac, to lift the depression. She journals her experience in an on-line forum's meds thread (and not on its general "I'd like to stop being depressed" thread). Four weeks, nothing. Eight weeks, nothing. She doses up, doses down, takes it in the morning, takes it in the evening, with milk, with water, with food, without food. Twelve weeks, nothing. Tries the name brand. Tries the generic. Eighteen weeks, nothing. Tries the tablets, tries the pills. Six months, nothing. Opts for the extended release. Nine months, nothing. Takes it in church, takes it while chanting, while repeating a mantra. One year, nothing. When is it time for her to stop posting about her prozac experience on the meds thread? Why keep posting- the shit just didn't work for her! Can she still post her experiences? Sure! But they are not meds experiences anymore suitable for the "meds" thread; they are now mundane depression experiences suitable for the "I'd like to stop being depressed" thread (or whatever it is called).



If the baclofen hasn't worked after 12, 26, 52 weeks, or more, why keep doing the same thing and expecting a different result (and writing about it in the meds thread)?



Just my two cents.



Frankly, all of this discord has made me even more skeptical of baclofen. Is it really helping anybody, or do we have here nothing more than a bunch of compelling placebo-effect stories proffered by well-meaning but unknowing cheerleaders? Worse yet, is baclofen much more harmful than is generally known? Dr. Ameisen gave the singularly worst, emotionally-unstable radio interview I've ever heard given by a professional and he may have even relapsed prior to his demise; Dr. Philip Thomas comes across as unstable and perhaps suffered some sort of psychotic break; Dr. Levin is no longer Dr. Levin; and no psychiatrists in my region (New England) to my knowledge use baclofen as a first, a second, or an any-line treatment for alcoholism OR anxiety!

Lex -Thank you for posting a very valid and common sense post. As you already know, if you post your opinion on the med thread, it becomes subject to the approval of others in this section of the forum.



Dun replied to you and guapo in her usual negative manner and just happens to be the one who instigated the trouble on my my most recent thread. I will no longer to respond to her posts. She has recently experienced severe alcohol intake problems and I am quite certain that anything that I say to her will only allow her to further rationalize and justify incoherent responses. It is not fair for me to respond to her at this point in her timeline.



Your post makes true, rational common sense points and these may offend some, but I greatlyappreciateyou posting them. Furthermore, I appreciate guapo following up to your post. Some may not like your common sense post, but in the end, your post may end up being the post that saves the offended. Well done.

[Spiritfree]

guapo and lex. Thanks for posting. I am too tired to get into the nitty gritty of this or that. say "
Back the fuck up and do the same for us on the MEDS thread.

Done Drinking -I just don't think that is fair or right for me to reply to you in your current state of being. I will hold off commenting to you for a while. I truly did not realize your current state of being until now. I wish you peace.

[lex]

dundrinkn- sorry didn't mean to offend you. Obviously I know it is hard to quit drinking. I'm six months sober and doing alright but I'm not an AA guy. I just don't understand why folks continue to take baclofen when to all outward appearances it simply does not work for them. That's all. Peace.

[Spiritfree]

Well said! Many folks on the Sinclair method thread seem to be getting nowhere also, yet persist. Wierd

If a good medication existed for alcoholism, wouldn't it be widely used and accepted ?

Because there isn't such a thing !

Gives the reader a pause doesn't it ?

Guapo -The points that you make are real, valid, and straightforward.

((1). TSM a/k/a Moderation: I have read testimony from 2 people who report that they did use TSM to eventually quit drinking and I I think that this is fantastic. Other than those two, the reality for most people who have abused alcohol to the stage of not being able to quit once they start drinking, moderation management is an illusion (dilusion). Most alcoholics have lost the ability to control alcohol impulses at this stage of the cycle. .

It is also important to note that many people who suffer from AUD (alcoholism) are all or none type of people. Many of us or flat out -100mph or -dead stop. This is just the way that our brains function and many of us were this way even befor we injectecte alcohol into our systems.

((2). Guano -as you already know, we now live in a world where communication happens quickly -especially on the net. If there was a pill that truly acted quickly to allow a person to stop drinking and rid themselves of this symptom driven disease, then it would be Katy-bar-the-door. The discussions we are having would not even exist. The reality is that there is still not a medication available that immediately resets the brain and destroys the alcohol-dopamine reaction. Fortunately, scientists are currently working in this direction and will someday have this 'real' medication resolution. Baclofen can and does help, but it is the 'medical cure' that many want it to be.

Guapo -Thank you for your post.

-sf-

[terryk]

Frankly, all of this discord has made me even more skeptical of baclofen. Is it really helping anybody, or do we have here nothing more than a bunch of compelling placebo-effect stories proffered by well-meaning but unknowing cheerleaders? Worse yet, is baclofen much more harmful than is generally known? Dr. Ameisen gave the singularly worst, emotionally-unstable radio interview I've ever heard given by a professional and he may have even relapsed prior to his demise; Dr. Philip Thomas comes across as unstable and perhaps suffered some sort of psychotic break; Dr. Levin is no longer Dr. Levin; and no psychiatrists in my region (New England) to my knowledge use baclofen as a first, a second, or an any-line treatment for alcoholism OR anxiety!

Hi lex - This thread has nothing to do with baclofen and I'm perplexed as to why you've brought it up here, in the way that you have...

1) High-dose baclofen has recently been proven efficacious for the treatment of alcohol dependence in a randomized, placebo-controlled trial.

2) High-dose Baclofen has a proven safety record - from High-dose oral baclofen: Experience with patients with Multiple Sclerosis (full text):"There are several references to long-term, high-dose baclofen treatment for spasticity. Jones and Lance summarised their experience with 113 patients with spasticity treated with baclofen for up to 6 years. Baclofen dosage ranged from 30 to 200mg daily with the mean varying from 60 to 110mg depending on the cause of spasticity. Treatment was abandoned in only four patients because of intolerable side effects, and another 20% required a reduction in dosage. [...] Pinto et al identified patients who had taken up to 225mg daily for up to 30 months and emphasized that many patients need more than 100 mg daily and that side effects are only infrequently a persisting problem." And from Clinical and Phamacokinetic Aspects of High-Dose Oral Baclofen (full text)"In this pilot sudy of baclofen kinetics and and synamics in eleven patients, the safety and efficacy of baclofen was confirmed."

3) As of October 2014, 55,000 patients in France have been prescribed Baclofen for the treatment of alcoholism. According to this survey (conducted when baclofen for alcoholism was still off-label), 74.6% of responding physicians (302) who specialize in treating alcohol addiction reported that they prescribed high-dose baclofen to their patients (mean dose 109.5??43.6 mg/d; maximum dose 188??93.3 mg/d).

4) Dr. Ameisen was a very passionate man who admittedly came off like a loose cannon at times. Who is to say why that was, but if you are suggesting that it has anything to to with baclofen I should point out that he was only on a high-dose for a very short time (a month? according to the book), then tapered to a daily maintenance dose (according to different reports I've read) between 60-120mg, and he maintained (to me personally, in an email about a year before he died) that he had never relapsed. Levin never used baclofen. Who cares about Philip Thomas.

5) An internet forum where most people are self-prescribing medications without the assistance of medical professionals is hardly a reliable data source for anyone to draw conclusions about what treatments are efficacious and what are not - you can't make science of out casually browsing through random self-reports. Add to that the possibility that a population that self-administers *any* medical treatment might be at a greater risk of failure than one receiving qualified supervision and reassurance.


I've never promoted baclofen anywhere other than by sharing my experience (positive and negative) and the information I've researched (positive and negative). If this makes me a baclofen cheerleader, go.me.

-tk

[Stevo]

dundrinkn- sorry didn't mean to offend you. Obviously I know it is hard to quit drinking. I'm six months sober and doing alright but I'm not an AA guy. I just don't understand why folks continue to take baclofen when to all outward appearances it simply does not work for them. That's all. Peace.

I am trying not to post on this thread but I don't understand this really...Baclofen is working exactly as described for me,and has for many.

[lex]

Stevo- of course, if the baclofen works for you that's another story!

[Spiritfree]

Lex -as Guapo alluded to in his post, if Baclofen is/was the miracle cure for most alcoholics, then we would not even be having these discussions. Baclofen would be taken by millions and millions of AUD sufferers -every day-regardless of all other factors. The fact is that Baclofen is not the total miracle pill that it is promoted to be on this section of the forum.

It is unfortunate, in my opinion that the med section of MWO is primarily a Baclofen for alcoholism section. The title of the section is "medication research and support". Over 84 percent of the posts in this section are related to Baclofen or in defense of Baclofen. Hopefully, this will change as newer medications and information are discovered.

[MeJustMe]

What I don't understand is the need to have a go at people who are trying to get well. If you have already, then great. It is frustrating to see so many people struggling when you are not, but you have to remember none of us are cured. We are all living on borrowed time from AL addiction. If we are fortunate, that borrowed time will last the rest of our lives; for some, it may not.



For me, Baclofen has been the one thing that has given me the greatest hope of working in the last five years that I have been drinking. I have had many periods of sobriety since I started drinking 34 years ago, but this has been the hardest to maintain. Every time I have had cravings, but this is the first time I have reached indifference to AL. Yes I am still struggling, but I am here not for any reason other than I want to stop drinking and get on with my life the best I can.



The point is, many people, including myself, are fragile. We come here for help. We come here for support. This is the only place I have got that in such abundance.



The discussions here are more than just 'robust', they are often spiteful. It should not be like this. You may not like how or understand why people write what they do here, but can you just stop?



Has anyone tried calling this Roberta woman to ask where the moderators are? I tried looking for a phone number but couldn't find one.

[Spiritfree]

Hi MJM -your question is my question -"why have a go at people who are trying to get well"?

In my 35 years years experience of abusing and becoming near death (on several occasions) with regards to alcohol, working and speaking with other AUD sufferers, I have come to several conclusions:

-- Most all alcoholics are very sensitive and fragile -especially in the midst of their drinking.
-- Most all alcoholics need to blame someone or something else for their unhappiness.
-- Most all alcoholics would rather argue and fight than to find positive solution.
-- Most alcoholics are mentally unable to have an open mind (because of the damage caused by alcohol to their brains).
-- Most alcoholics are unable to imagine living without alcohol -even though this can appear to be the most important goal of an alcoholic while he or she is drinking.

There are many more truisms relative to the similar characteristics of alcoholics. None of the traits are, in and of themselves bad, until these traits begin to hurt others or kill the alcoholic.

MJM, I have contacted Roberta in the past and they do seem to step in when people truly do become harmful to others. I do not think that they will step in and abolish someone who posts their own opinions and never attacks others on a personal basis. They have been doing this a long time and they do have the knowledge and experience to recognize harmful behavior and shut it down when necessary -as they have done in the past 6 months.

Me -if someone is saying something that you do not like, use your ability not to not read what they post. Ignore them and what they say. What the offenders might say - might not help you but could possibly help someone else. Unless a person is attacking you -personally, and harassing you, you still have the ability to ignore them.

Just a thought. (We all are trying to heal, repair, and rebuild -sometimes difficult for all of us to remember and accomplish.)

[Colin]

Lex -as Guapo alluded to in his post, if Baclofen is/was the miracle cure for most alcoholics, then we would not even be having these discussions. Baclofen would be taken by millions and millions of AUD sufferers -every day-regardless of all other factors. The fact is that Baclofen is not the total miracle pill that it is promoted to be on this section of the forum.



It is unfortunate, in my opinion that the med section of MWO is primarily a Baclofen for alcoholism section. The title of the section is "medication research and support". Over 84 percent of the posts in this section are related to Baclofen or in defense of Baclofen. Hopefully, this will change as newer medications and information are discovered.

If you stopped posting that 84% would probably drop significantly. Incidentally, where does the 84% come from?



Your value to MWO is in the references to useful information. If you could only refrain from posting your dubious opinions the world would be a happier place. Furthermore your wife would get a better opinion of you.



Remembering my criticism of your spelling, punctuation and grammar, these have improved no end to judge by this post. Congratulations.

[Spiritfree]

Where does the 84% come from?

Your value to MWO is in the references to useful information. If you could only refrain from posting your dubious opinions the world would be a happier place.

Remembering my criticism of your spelling, punctuation and grammar, these have improved no end to judge by this post. Congratulations.

Hi Colen -
In response:
(1). "Where did you get 84%?": (a). MATH: division (I should not have rounded up)
(2). "Dubious opinions:" Why only me?
(3). "Grammar, spelling, etc:": TK hurt my feelings enough when he called me the village idiot that I knew that I had to take action to unbecome the "idiot". It was then I realized he had my number so I have hired a tutor to try and help me. You and TK have been an inspiration. (btw, I am glad that you two have mended fences and r back holding hands-lol).

[badger]

Has anyone tried calling this Roberta woman to ask where the moderators are? I tried looking for a phone number but couldn't find one.

you could try PM'ing her:



https://www.mywayout.org/community/members/3.html



or Forum Admin Zac:



https://www.mywayout.org/community/members/1.html



-badger

[Spiritfree]

Hi Badger -thank you for your input. Again, I pose this option for you to pass on to other members in an effort to help us all:


"Hi MJM -your question is my question -"why have a go at people who are trying to get well"?

MJM, I have contacted Roberta in the past and they do seem to step in when people truly do become harmful to others. I do not think that they will step in and abolish someone who posts their own opinions and never attacks others on a personal basis. They have been doing this a long time and they do have the knowledge and experience to recognize harmful behavior and shut it down when necessary -as they have done in the past 6 months.

Me -if someone is saying something that you do not like, use your ability not to not read what they post. Ignore them and what they say. What the offenders might say might not help you but could possibly help someone else. Unless a person is attacking you -personally and harassing you, you still have the ability to ignore them.

Just a thought. (We all are trying to heal, repair, and rebuild -sometimes difficult for all of us to remember.)

you could try PM'ing her:

https://www.mywayout.org/community/members/3.html

or Forum Admin Zac:

https://www.mywayout.org/community/members/1.html

-badger