I'm leaving My Way Out

[MeJustMe]

Spirit, man, I am so sorry that I didn't understand you. Now I do. You have helped me so much; I have had an etiffany after reading your sage posts. You are just so helpful here, you are the man that holds the tremulous threads of this forum together. Peace, man, and never forget the second amendment. Mostly I feel sorry for you; if your oversight for alcoholism in this space is what holds you together, then all I can say is I wish the very best for you. Yep, I have done what I promised myself I would never do, but there you go.

[MeJustMe]

-- Most all alcoholics would rather argue and fight than to find positive solution.

So this is you SF. Your view of those around you is actually, it would appear, you. Keep fighting the good fight. Because your demons are whom you are fighting more than any of us. God bless.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

MeJustMe,
I don't know why you are still trying to give him insight, or encourage a little introspection on his part. We have tried this for almost two years now.

And while I'm not reading his posts, for the most part, I am reading the responses. Based on those, and the two posts I read because I wasn't logged in and therefore he wasn't on ignore, his solution is just that we should ALL just ignore him so he can continue to litter these boards with garbage.

I was very amused that on the other thread, Little beagle, a newbie who is not taking meds, and is simply looking for solutions for her husband, posted that she thought his posts were helpful. I'd love to know how and why she thinks that. Seriously. His last post (I looked), the one she was responding to, was about enzymes in rats. That's just funny, don't you think?

And Otter's rant, while a bit nonsensical, did have some very valid points. It's confusing why we, the regular participants on this part of the forum, should have to ignore his posts, particularly when he posts WAY more than other people, and almost all of it irrelevant.

So, I guess my point is, and I'm sorry to say this, but you're wasting your time. He's just going to tell you what he's told all the rest of us, which is to put him on ignore so he can continue with his craziness. I suggest, that just this once, you take his advice. He's not going to take yours, that's for damn sure.

(You would assume that anyone who is being completely ignored would move on. I doubt that will be the case here. Delusion is a powerful thing. There's a lesson in Spiritfree's denial that he is responsible for the reactions he foments. Some of us are MUCH sicker than others.)

[Spiritfree]

Ne -I am truly happy for you that you are turning your life around and things finally seem to be happening for you in positive ways (incredibly encouraging words to read).

NE -There is absolutely no excuse nor reason to bring up someone else in to your ring of fire towards me just because they say/said something positive about me. You have now made hurtful comments towards one of my true friends on MWO and this does upset me as it should many others on MWO who know LB. You have now intentionally written harmful, unnecessary, and untrue words towards a person that you do not even know. You have now shown your true colors for all to read and better understand just exactly who you really are and what your real motives are.

NE -Little Beagle is NOT a "newbie". Had you taken the time to read any of her posts or history, you would realize just how truly good of a person she is and how she has struggled to overcome her own alcoholism. Furthermore, had you taken the time to read her posts, you have found out just how helpful she is and has been to others on the forum. Additionally, had you not been so upset that someone said something positive about me, you would have taken the time to read and understand that she was not responding to my most recent post but to another post that Colen had written about and to me. NE -you have NO IDEA who you chosen to belittle and write harmful words to/about -but you have now crossed a line that was not necessary and is inexcusable.

NE- You know and realize that I do not care what you think or say about me, but I do care about what you say to others in harmful and belittling ways. Ne, if you wanted to be harmful to forum as a whole, you have just accomplished your mission. There is no excuse for your words to Little Beagle and you owe Little Beagle and the entire forum a true apology. NE, stick to your words: Ignore me and my words.

NE -please stop with the harmful commentary, the hateful-spiteful words, the total negativity. Please do not allow yourself to be a part of fractional group that is trying to tear down the forum. In your efforts to express anger towards me, you are allowing yourself to be a part of a plan by someone else (person has several avatar names). Your true freedom and happiness will not come to you as the result of resenting me and trying to cause harm to others.

NE -you are being manipulated by someone else and you do not even realize it. Ignore me and you will not continue to be a part of his plan.

NE -just exactly what do you stand for: (a) drinking while taking baclofen? (b) not drinking while taking baclofen? (c) drinking on occasion to overcome depression? (e) drinking when you really do not want to drink (against your "will")
What do you stand up for other than what makes you feel better at the time?

You commented about/to this person:
"I was very amused that on the other thread, Little beagle, a newbie who is not taking meds, and is simply looking for solutions for her husband, posted that she thought his posts were helpful. I'd love to know how and why she thinks that. Seriously. His last post (I looked), the one she was responding to, was about enzymes in rats. That's just funny, don't you think?"

If someone is saying something that you do not like, use your ability not to not read what they post. Ignore them and what they say. What the offenders might say might not help you but could possibly help someone else. Unless a person is attacking you -personally and harassing you, you still have the ability to ignore them.
(We ALL are trying to heal, repair, and rebuild -sometimes difficult for all of us to remember.)[/I][/B]

[Spiritfree]

Little Beagle -I want to personally thank you for your positive comments on my thread that you made a few days ago.

I am very-very sorry that someone (NE) chose to say the things that she did -about you and to you. I have had a few other people say positive things about information that I have posted -in the past, but I have never seen anyone reply to them the way NE has/did to you. Please do not take her comments personally -she does not even know you and you already know that you are great person that fought your way out of the alcohol hell hole (she -NE-has not).

--sf--

[Otter]

Ne, the point I am making is this is big business. Paying some guy like SF to disrupt a forum is peanuts to a big pharma. Rekits Benckiser paid $20 million for the patent for arbaclofen. They are being investigated for taking actions which damage the business of "generics", which is what baclofen is.

If this forum is the only forum on the internet on which people can get free, good advice on baclofen use which is a generic, it is easy to see why they would pay some guy to dilute the message about baclofen and turn this forum into one where baclofen is not that prominent and where people can't get the support they need because this guy is drowning them out. I know SF. I had many private conversations and Skypes with him.

I've been there with him and had it done to me personally and in my head, in my home. I don't believe for one second he is coming here taking all this abuse just to spread around a lot of useless information about alcoholism. I've seen him sitting in his office behind a desk in his office. He isn't a recovering alcoholic, he is a businessman and he doesn't come here to get support while coming off alcohol or to get through recovery. He isn't an alcoholic, he is a professional and he is doing this for his own reasons and they have nothing to do with getting people onto baclofen. "Surprise, Surprise" as Gomer Pyle used to say.

[Otter]

You don't need to apologize for someone else here, SF. It's patronizing and you have no business patronizing someone who has done far more than you ever will to help alcoholics in their recovery.



Then again, I don't think you know what the word "patronizing" means.

[Baclofenman]

Fuck me - I have read this post 6 times and it is still....Stunning



Regards





Jod

Just drove home a carpool of sweaty, stinky 15 year old soccer players. Whew. But your comment about freedom being abstract stuck with me. You are right that abstinence is concrete because you're counting days while not drinking. One drink, that gets erased. My personal experience is that is devastating. Watching so many others hit that wall -- most don't rally back. And even if you abstain like I did for a really long time -- nine plus years -- that's over 3200 days of not drinking. One drink, BAM, you are back to zero. Try waking up from that and pulling yourself up by your boot straps.



Freedom is this -- maybe you take a drink, maybe you don't. Maybe you count days, maybe you don't. But whatever happens, you maintain equilibrium. You don't take a drink and trigger an avalanche of craving. An avalanche of shame and consternation. You just wake up and its another day. That's not so abstract. Elusive perhaps. So is happiness. So is love. So are a lot of things worth pursuing.



Your path of abstaining is a noble one. Many have taken it. It is very, very hard to maintain. Just take a look over at the threads in the other section. People count days. Many start over at one point or another. Many, many more just disappear. What I will say about folks on this med thread is they are long-term fighters. Maybe they've had ups and downs. But they're still here (or were until the last day or so) trying to figure their own way out. I admire folks that can and do abstain. And I don't take anything away from them when they "slip." Ouch, I say. Because I know the sting.



My guess is that I've spent more time sober or not drinking then many here have drinking. Probably more time drinking too. Being older means you get to win a lot in these kinds of counting games. I honor that path. Been there, done that. It's just one I no longer choose to walk.

[dundrinkn]

Hello Bacman,
Thank you for rediscovering this post. Interesting enough, it was in response to Lex who had made a comment about "freedom" from AL with Bac was elusive and unattainable. He's the dude who seems to chime in on this board only when Sp.F'er is getting trounced. Guess they're buddies. He also recently has made a douche bag comment about Ne. One of my points applies to both -- why try and tear someone down when they relapse. We aren't over on the general thread clapping and sneering and making sarcastic comments about the ineffectiveness of abstinence -- even though it really only works for about 5 percent of all alcoholics. That's some shitty odds!

Sp.F'er has accused me of only commenting on this board to be nasty about him. There have been many times in my 3 years here where that was not the case. Most notably when we wasn't serving up his own special vile mix of shit for advice and nasty, belittling comments about posters who call him on it.

I know he claims to be sober. However, I have noticed more and more that it is in the later evening hours that his true nastiness comes out. His post at this time of night also tend to be full of spelling errors, grammar mistakes and often just plain gibberish. He will clean them up over the next day or so, or once someone points something out in a post, he'll just delete it.

Just saying... I think the man may still be in grip of the beast. If not, he's just a prick.

[lex]

dundrinkn-

I don't chime in much because I don't believe I have much to add to the various discussions. I couldn't keep taking baclofen due to the side effects it caused in me. Fortunately, thus far (284 days- not much) I have been able to maintain sobriety without baclofen, but it is strictly one day at a time for me and not all days are easy. Some days I wonder why I bother maintaining any discipline whatsoever (be it sobriety, diet, exercise, meditation, positivity). What, after all, is the point of it all? Other days I'm ok with it.

I have no special feelings for SF, but I do tend to rally to the side of the underdog, and until just yesterday I had been perceiving SF as the underdog. But SF's most recent comments do make me question his bona fides.

Finally, I must admit I could not stop myself from responding to SF's comment yesterday about heavy alcohol use amongst 5 +/- year baclofen users, despite my recent misgivings about the author. I am trying to change myself into the type of person who can resist temptations of this sort, but I remain a work in progress.

May we all have a happy, peaceful Sunday!

[dundrinkn]

Hi Lex,
Thanks for posting again. Now I remember that you are also the guy who is quick with humility and to admit you might have been off base. (Way too many years of drinking for me = memory issues.) When you do post here about yourself, your posts are really sincere and honest. That probably bodes well for your long-term prospects for sobriety.

As for my Sunday, I'm hoping for a Broncos win! For Bacman, that's some American football brutality and utter madness. Looking forward to witnessing it and losing my mind just a bit more today!!

[Baclofenman]

Hello Bacman,
Thank you for rediscovering this post. Interesting enough, it was in response to Lex who had made a comment about "freedom" from AL with Bac was elusive and unattainable. He's the dude who seems to chime in on this board only when Sp.F'er is getting trounced. Guess they're buddies. He also recently has made a douche bag comment about Ne. One of my points applies to both -- why try and tear someone down when they relapse. We aren't over on the general thread clapping and sneering and making sarcastic comments about the ineffectiveness of abstinence -- even though it really only works for about 5 percent of all alcoholics. That's some shitty odds!

Hi DD

Being honest with you I have not seen the post from Lex - I understand about the chiming up comment as this is prevelant on most fora' where there is a conflict of opinion
It is probably no secret that I think the world of Ne - She has helped me alot recently and I always appreciate her input - I am glad in a way I did not see (and probably wont look for) the post as I will probably say something more than I should but should not - No one should be belittled on this site whatever has happened as we are "all in it together" - Why the fuck would someone be such a wanker?
The fact that I believe that I can only abstain not moderate is MY decision, no one elses, not yours (with respect ), not Ne' or SF' - Just mine - The scale of Baclofen I take is MINE - Yes I will take the advise of those who have been before me with great respect but the decision is mine

As I have said before, I am only here for help - I am a newbie here for help and support - I guess over time I will learn who I can trust and who I cant - Its a part of growing up I suppose

Oh SF - I feel sorry for him tbh - From the little I know of him he is seriously troubled, Paranoid and in denial - I totally get the time thing DD, I mean he was posting blank posts the other night and posts with just " on them WTF - Is this the behaviour of a normal person? - He removes and changes posts as the edit button is live infinately for some reason - Fortunately some of his removed posts have been kept - I initially thought maybe they were fake but when I challenged him on it he failed to refute them as such - I have no doubt, not withstanding my previous comments he is still drinking and rather a lot by the quality of his postings

Just saying... I think the man may still be in grip of the beast. If not, he's just a prick.

A lot of both would be my bet

Nice to chat DD

Best Regards



Bacman

[Baclofenman]

It is probably no secret that I think the world of Ne - She has helped me alot recently and I always appreciate her input - I am glad in a way I did not see (and probably wont look for) the post as I will probably say something more than I should but should not

Oh and another thing on the subject of Ne - She can well look after herself

Regards


Bacman

[Ne/Neva Eva]

It is probably no secret that I think the world of Ne - She has helped me alot recently and I always appreciate her input -

Oh and another thing on the subject of Ne - She can well look after herself

Regards

Bacman

Thanks, Bacman. I can take care of myself by trying really hard not to let the petty stuff get me going, or worse, let people hurt my feelings. I can certainly understand Lex's comment about "trying to resist temptations" but "being a work in progress." But that doesn't mean it isn't nice to hear that I helped someone out and have friends here. So really, thank you. I appreciate your comments about me.



I don't actually know if I'd seen that post by dundrinkin before. I know that she's a fount of wisdom. And funny, to boot. But that one was a really, really good post.



It's hard to get, and stay, sober. It just is. I can't punish myself for something I feel is beyond my control. On the other hand, I wonder how other people can control it for (say) 200++ days when I have never been able to get 30 consecutive days together without taking a pill (baclofen). I wonder what it's going to take for me to get sober and stay abstinent for a while. And I wonder why it's so fucking hard, even with baclofen.



Then I think about Doggygirl, who was here for years before she got sober/abstinent. She had a thread that sort of inspired mine, honestly, because it was so honest. Last I heard from her, she had just finished her degree in counseling people like us and felt she had contributed enough here and was going to focus on the 3D world of our people. I tried to find her thread, but she has so damn many that I didn't sort through them all. Plus it's been many, many years since she updated that ol' thread about finally finding abstinence and then, eventually, contentment.



Just like we're all trying to do.

[dundrinkn]

Just to be clear about my comment about abstaining. What I like about taking taking Baclofen longterm is that I know I won't be able to "never take a drink again". I have gone really, really long amounts of time without have a sip, only to have one beer and then just be crushed by it. What I see with BAC is that folks occasionally have a drink and the craving isn't triggered.

Now, let me tell you about my experience. I have lowered my dosage too low to experience this phenomenon on a consistent basis. I go without AL for just long enough to think I'm not going to drink again. Ever. So I start to lower the dose of baclofen because I have a nasty side effect of nerve pain in my legs on higher doses of Bac. I then end up triggered by something where I have a drink. I end up back in the cycle.

Now here's what else I'll say. I'm still here. I'm still on Baclofen. And even when I do drink now and get into a cycle, I pull myself out and start over. Before the Baclofen, I would disappear into years of drinking and shame and guilt. That doesn't happen anymore. I just put on my big girl panties and start upping the dosage until I lose the craving and then I just plug along. I have also added Gabapentin to the mix to try and counter the nerve pain which works to a degree.

I am not someone who is trying to use baclofen to "drink in moderation". I also know that even when I really get it into my head that I'm never going to drink again, I alway fucking to it!!! Damn it to hell. I did it after being in AA for 9 years. Argh. I'd have like 30 years of sobriety right now if it weren't for that one beer (ha!).

So that's me. That's why I'll be on this damn drug until something better comes along that can help my sorry ass. Because I'm a drunk. I like to drink. Like Lex so eloquently wrote above "Some days I wonder why I bother maintaining any discipline whatsoever (be it sobriety, diet, exercise, meditation, positivity). What, after all, is the point of it all? Other days I'm ok with it." On those days where I just don't see the point and I cave and take a drink, I don't want that to define me. I want that to be an "Oh well. That didn't really help either." So the next day I can make a different choice rather than blow my brains out. Ya know?