Not Leaving MWO just yet. HA!

[Spiritfree]

Oh Please. I'm tired of the fighting. sf, please stop.

IF YOU ARE SO TIRED OF THE FIGHTING, STOP BEING A PART OF IT -PLEASE

Kronked, why do you even jump in with your remark? Does it not take more than one to create a so called fight?

Why do you not say something to everyone about this silly, continued, bickering? I would suggest that you have an agenda and it has nothing to do with what is right or wrong.

This is all NON-SENSE. NEEDLESS, hurtful, belittlittlng thoughts thrown at one person because you disagree with him or he hurt your feelings -unintentionally.

Go ahead Kronked, join in with the gang -again and again. Trust me, they have your back. When all is said and done, you will only have to answer to yourself -no one else (and you will have to do so without alcohol).

[Otter]

Seriously Pauly, was this comment necessary or helpful? Please consider the damage that you do to your self when you post this type of misinformation.

Pauly, you will not receive the healing that you are so desperately seeking by posting negative thoughts about me. Please consider this fact when you post anything to anyone.

I don't know, SF. It can be cathartic and energizing posting how one feels about someone who really is a nasty piece of work. What did you call yourself when we spoke on Skype. Oh yeah, "Ugly from Georgia". That's not about how you look, that is about your personality and you said it, sir.

You obviously have some insight into yourself.

You are unique here in that you are the only person here who has come onto this forum and immediately targetted people by sending them PM's and asking to contact them on Skype, get their emails and try to engage with them about things outside baclofen treatment.

Are you so lacking in insight that you don't realize that no one appreciates your presence on this forum and no one is benefitting from anything you say? Or is that what you want because someone is paying you to post your silly research findings

By the way, I know what you do for a living and you are not a scientist and have no medical background so what qualifies you to spread information around about medical treatments on a forum where people have actually died from alcoholism? That's the debate you need to involve yourself in and that's the question you need to ask yourself. Why are you interfering in people's recovery from a life threatening illness when you have no medical experience and by taking your advice, they could die?

[Spiritfree]

I totally "get" your needing your own forum. The reason I suggested proboards is that even a tech moron like myself could easily set the thing up. I started my own forum because of unbridled bullying on this one.
I have a feeling that your nemesis is going to be desperately lost once you're posting elsewhere...it seems that he lives to harass the baclofen folks.

fennel -thank you for adding fuel to the fire. You do not even know me or what I say and why I say it -you only 'jump' in effort to make yourself feel better about yourself and your former actions -and you want to feel as though you are a member of the club. I guess that I just do not understand the motives behind the actions of people who feel so negatively towards themselves and others.

[Cassander]

Spirit, my friend. Given that this is, fundamentally, a support board, I must ask you: Are you ok? Are you sober? Do you need some help and support, yourself? Your belligerence here has been growing and growing over the past months, well past normal, and your circle of friends and allies, once many here, is diminishing to the vanishing point. This is ordinarily not a good sign for an alcoholic. I have no wish to argue with you or hurt you or criticize you. After all we, each one of us here, of all people, lives in her or his own glass house. Please let us know, publicly or privately, if we can possibly be of any help. Cass

[Spiritfree]

Spirit, my friend. Given that this is, fundamentally, a support board, I must ask you: Are you ok? Are you sober? Do you need some help and support, yourself? Your belligerence here has been growing and growing over the past months, well past normal, and your circle of friends and allies, once many here, is diminishing to the vanishing point. This is ordinarily not a good sign for an alcoholic. I have no wish to argue with you or hurt you or criticize you. After all we, each one of us here, of all people, lives in her or his own glass house. Please let us know, publicly or privately, if we can possibly be of any help. Cass

Hi Cass, as you already know, you are one the of members on this forum that I respect and admire the most and I do appreciate you asking if I need help. Cass, I do help. I need for others to step in (up) and ask that others not continue their bombardment of continuous and personal assaults on me. As you say, this is a support forum and as such should provide support and helpful information to all. If someone does not like what I post and documented information that I post, please ask them not provide assaulting, negative feedback. Please ask them to ignore my posts and information. (ex: I post what I thought was a very important research study performed by Stanford University that speaks of baclofen being very helpful in eliminating subliminal drinking cues that occur 6 months post drinking.) The only responses that I began to receiving were in regards to my comment that baclofen can help you stop drinking if you stop drinking. Seriously Cass, just because I believe that you do have to quit drinking in order to quit drinking should not give rise to personal attacks on me.

Can you imagine being the subject of attacks on a forum dedicated to providing information and support to those who want to quit drinking because you make posts/information available about NOT drinking? What in the world the am I not understanding Cass? Please help me understand. Do I not have a right to my own opinion and the right to express it? None of my opinions are directed at any one single individual. Cass, have you read Ne's and Otter's most recent posts relative to me?

Cass, I would truly like to think that you, of all the people that I know on this forum, would realize (or would have realized) that I have not one time commented negatively to someone on their own thread where they did not refer to me in their post. I have quite simply responded to those who responded to me -and most on the med threads have done so in a very negative and harmful way. Cass, I have not had a circle of friends and allies on this section of the forum for over a year and half. I have continued to post information relative to medications for alcoholism and I have made posts that are not supportive of Baclofen. When I posted information that was not supportive of baclofen, the so called circle of friends vanished on the med section. (Admittedly Cass, I did become upset when NE needlessly and unjustifiably responded harshly to someone on my thread when they said something positive about the information that I provide. I do hope that you offer NE the same type of help that you are offering me -for her benefit and possibly offer TK the same as well. As he has stated, I am the village idot; is this considered being belligerent or just simply a way of trying to hurt someone?

The medication section of the forum is deeply entrenched in the idea that baclofen is the only real solution to alcoholism. Many of you have spent much time and energy posting and supporting baclofen as "the answer". As such, I do think that it is very difficult to offer information regarding new medications and research to those who have invested so much time and energy into baclofen. I do hope that all of you that are true baclofen pioneers understand how valuable your initial efforts were in going against the grain when Baclofen was a newcomer and a starting point to medications for alcoholism. Some of you stood up for an idea at a point in time when it was not a very accepted or popular thing to do.

So Cass, yes you can certainly be of help to me and I am grateful that you have offered. Will you please consider asking those who are attacking and responding to me and my posts on my own threads to stop doing so? Will you also ask them to stop badgering and trying to belittle me on their own threads? You will find that I do not post on other peoples threads unless they refer to me. What more can I do outside of not responding to others upon their response to me?

Finally Cass, if trying to defend one's self from the onslaught of personal and vindictive words is considered "belligerent", then I stand guilty. Something strange did happen to me Cass when I stopped drinking a few years ago, I began to believe that it was ok for me to have my own opinions and thoughts, and to express them as long as those thoughts and opinions were not intentionally being harmful to others. If this is not what you mean by me being "belligerent", please help to understand what you are talking about so that I can hopefully change course.
--sf--

One of my favorite quotes:
“There is a principle which is a bar against all information,
which is proof against all arguments,
and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance—that principle is contempt prior to investigation.”
William Paley
--1794--

[Otter]

If you can write lengthy emails like that and do the research you are doing, you aren't an alcoholic. You aren't helping anyone, no one wants you here and you should leave.

By staying you raise legitimate suspicions that you are being paid to post here by a rehab clinic or chain of clinics or by a pharmaceutical company to post in such a way that the generic "baclofen" is undermined on the only support forum for users of the drug.

I saw you on Skype when you first came on this forum and you are in no way an alcoholic nor were you ever one. You have an accounting qualification and a family business which from the Youtube videos and patents you hold is plainly a successful one.

It is obvious you are not here to help the members of this forum recover and since you aren't an alcoholic yourself there is no reason for you to be here.

[lex]

If you can write lengthy emails like that and do the research you are doing, you aren't an alcoholic. You aren't helping anyone, no one wants you here and you should leave.

By staying you raise legitimate suspicions that you are being paid to post here by a rehab clinic or chain of clinics or by a pharmaceutical company to post in such a way that the generic "baclofen" is undermined on the only support forum for users of the drug.

I saw you on Skype when you first came on this forum and you are in no way an alcoholic nor were you ever one. You have an accounting qualification and a family business which from the Youtube videos and patents you hold is plainly a successful one.

It is obvious you are not here to help the members of this forum recover and since you aren't an alcoholic yourself there is no reason for you to be here.

otter- you are raising serious questions--at least in my mind--about whether you are becoming paranoid!

[Guitarista]

Hey SF,



I always look at intent. A persons intent. And I believe your intentions are well meaning in your desire to share info around eradicating alcohol abuse. Given all the flack you've been getting, I too am concerned with your own general health. Sometimes we need to pause, step back, and remember to put our health first. If we are give, give, giving all the time and that balance between what we give and what we receive becomes out of whack, we can burnout. It's happened to me, and I've seen it in others.



There are keyboard warriors on forums everywhere, all at various stages of personal development and life experience, so there's always opportunity for conflict, but also useful discussion.



Don't forget to put your self and your health first always, otherwise things close to us are not right. In such situations, I shut down my computer and go kick the footy!



Take care, G.

[Spiritfree]

Hey SF,

I always look at intent. A persons intent. And I believe your intentions are well meaning in your desire to share info around eradicating alcohol abuse. Given all the flack you've been getting, I too am concerned with your own general health. Sometimes we need to pause, step back, and remember to put our health first. If we are give, give, giving all the time and that balance between what we give and what we receive becomes out of whack, we can burnout. It's happened to me, and I've seen it in others.

There are keyboard warriors on forums everywhere, all at various stages of personal development and life experience, so there's always opportunity for conflict, but also useful discussion.

Don't forget to put your self and your health first always, otherwise things close to us are not right. In such situations, I shut down my computer and go kick the footy!

Take care, G.

Hi G -You are 100% correct.

It is very discouraging and harmful to continuously receive such negative and personal negative and personal attacks from people. Eventually, these types of harmful attacks do eventually begin to mentally and physically harm someone. However G-Man, if you are right about something and know that you are right (the passing along of new information relative to alcoholism), would/is it more harmful to back down or to continue to stand for what you know is right?

One thing is for certain G, when a person is backed into a corner and is trying to survive, he either finds a way out to run or he fights until he is extinguished (or survives). What a shame it will be or is that the medication forum remains a "Baclofen research and support forum".

G-Man --I truly do not understand how I have been able to accept and take the abuse that I have received on this section of the forum. All that I do know is that I am sober (2.5 years) -happy, and free, that I believe in the right of free speech, and that I happen to be one that continues to have the ability to stand for what is right but necessarily popular.

Thank you for your concern and your post.

[Guitarista]

-Man, if you are right about something and know that you are right (the passing along of new information relative to alcoholism), would/is it more harmful to back down or to continue to stand for what you know is right?

Another approach might be that once you have posted links to studies/new info, then leave it be, as that should speak for itself and folks can do their own research if interested. Let people shoot it down. No probs. There will be others who will find the info useful or interesting. More time to kick the footy with family, less time with online trivia. Spending too much of our time in front of a screen can be dangerous. I see life is too short mate.

[guapo]

Well said, Mr G

[SKendall]

Someone told me to have a quick look over here. S.F. does write grammatically correct., etc. But looking at this objectively it would appear that his intent is on needling people. He knows that he's annoying, but still persists. Loves defending himself in the "noble" manner of "helping" people.



Loves writing about himself in a very narcissistic way.



I don't think he's working for any recovery forum just loves the attention.



Through the years on this forum we have had many people who have aliases and cause trouble. Some are still drinking and others need a different kind of help.



Since it would appear he enjoys needling people, why allow it. Ignore him, his taunts and don't respond to his posts - just don't even read them. I know some have a lot of free hours in the day but they can be spent better than reading his posts.

[Otter]

Yes, on the face of it, one would assume he is just a dingbat.

I have raised this issue about him because of my experience with him and because of the specific issues around recovery on baclofen.

If you aren't "into" baclofen treatment in a heavy way you won't get what is going on. Baclofen allows you to stop drinking either over a long time or virtually immediately. It is a radical change in treatment of alcoholism and is going to have a profound effect on alcoholism rehabilitation. It could knock the crap out of traditional rehab which is a multi-billion dollar industry around the world. There are some rehabs which are moving towards a drug-based treatment scheme combined with counselling but this is a very new thing.

I have given advice to people using baclofen. One person spoke to me for a week, got back on his feet, went to work and then said he didn't need me. That is the problem for rehab. People aren't going to pay for counselling if they can get it on-line and for free, here.

This forum has become famous around the world in alcoholism treatment circles. Senior doctors watch what goes on here. I know because I've been told by one of them. They read what goes on here to get ideas for their own patients. It's the only place they can get information about dosage straight from people who are using it. So, that makes this a valuable site in the movement away from traditional rehab towards something which, ultimately, may replace it.

Here is the thing about SF. He has come here and disrupted the atmosphere of this place. So, why is this significant? It's because when a person takes baclofen and comes off the booze, it is still very important, even more important than for others, to have a supportive environment psychologically. Imagine what is going on. You've stopped drinking, got rid of a major crutch in your life. You are aware of everything you have done, are taking a "way out there" medication which makes you come across as a crank who won't accept mainstream advice on alcoholism. It singles you out like nothing else and you are really, truly, f.cking alone in this. If you mention what you are doing to anyone, it makes whatever sh.t you've got yourself into 100 times worse, when it should make it better. So,you need help from people going through the same crazy situation, and , trust me, there is no other place out there.

This makes this particular meds thread extremely important for the people on it who can't get support from anyone else. To an outsider it might look like we belong to a cult so that aspect of it is thrown back at us. But the problem is that we know this is real so what the traditionalists say to us just makes us get anxious and stressed. There's no where to turn except here. If you start talking to most people, including doctors, they go all embarrassed and don't want to talk to you or start trying to tell you that you are wrong because their cousin or uncle, or they themselves, got off booze by stopping cold or going to AA.

I try to explain to people that baclofen treatment needs counselling as well, but it isn't the same kind of counselling but the only place you can get it is here, for the moment.

Having someone like SF come here is our worst nightmare. He is like a wrecking ball. He attacks people who are offering their help and advice, drives them away and damages the supportive nature of the forum, deliberately, in my opinion. By doing that, he undermines the therapeutic value of this forum.

If someone were to devise a way of undermining this forum so it and other forums which offer an interesting and important alternative at no cost to anyone who can get access to the internet, they couldn't have done a better job than SF in carrying that out.

I have seen a number of posters here express disbelief but when I look at their background they are people who typically have come off booze on their own or aren't taking baclofen. They come here to get a bit of information about medications out there and they find what might to them seem like a normal every day situation where some guy has decided, out of the goodness of his heart, to spread the word about modern medical advances....what a guy! Then there is us lot hammering away at him. Again, there it is, the classic reaction to baclofen users who understand THEIR OWN NEEDS while onlookers ignore, disbelieve, laugh...

All I can say is that I don't know what made SF do this but he sure figured out a way to dismantle this forum and damage it as a place of refuge and support for those who taking baclofen.

What I would say to anyone reading this is that please, please, do not assume that baclofen is a prank or a hoax. Do not think that you know what the needs are of people taking baclofen. Don't push your own opinion on them on this forum or when you deal with them. This drug works, it alters one's reality, for the good. They are in a highly sensitive situation. They are undergoing serious treatment with a seriously potent drug on their brains. Would you walk into a hospital ward where people were undergoing chemical treatment of their brains and start lecturing them about drugs they are not being given and denigrate them? Any one who can't see that needs to have a hard think about this.

I have seen someone go through this treatment, get good advice, support from outside agencies who have decided to help out, and feel like they were, at last, on their way to recovery. I have also seen senior managers yank that support away because it doesn't fit with the management philosophy and I have seen the person on baclofen crumble before my eyes.

So, don't go into an AA meeting and start preaching to people there that they are wrong. Don't come here and spout off about how we've got it wrong. Think before you post here and think about people who are on a drug based brain treatment, with no effing support in the community and afraid to talk about it. Think about what you are saying when you come here because this place is important to a lot of people because it has given them back their lives when others have not only failed but have obstinately, dogmatically, deliberately and wrongly stood in their way.

[_serenity_]

Otter, you summed it up PERFECTLY. Thank you.

[knobert]

A reply about spiritfree from otter

Yes, on the face of it, one would assume he is just a dingbat.



I have raised this issue about him because of my experience with him and because of the specific issues around recovery on baclofen.



If you aren't "into" baclofen treatment in a heavy way you won't get what is going on. Baclofen allows you to stop drinking either over a long time or virtually immediately. It is a radical change in treatment of alcoholism and is going to have a profound effect on alcoholism rehabilitation. It could knock the crap out of traditional rehab which is a multi-billion dollar industry around the world. There are some rehabs which are moving towards a drug-based treatment scheme combined with counselling but this is a very new thing.



I have given advice to people using baclofen. One person spoke to me for a week, got back on his feet, went to work and then said he didn't need me. That is the problem for rehab. People aren't going to pay for counselling if they can get it on-line and for free, here.



This forum has become famous around the world in alcoholism treatment circles. Senior doctors watch what goes on here. I know because I've been told by one of them. They read what goes on here to get ideas for their own patients. It's the only place they can get information about dosage straight from people who are using it. So, that makes this a valuable site in the movement away from traditional rehab towards something which, ultimately, may replace it.



Here is the thing about SF. He has come here and disrupted the atmosphere of this place. So, why is this significant? It's because when a person takes baclofen and comes off the booze, it is still very important, even more important than for others, to have a supportive environment psychologically. Imagine what is going on. You've stopped drinking, got rid of a major crutch in your life. You are aware of everything you have done, are taking a "way out there" medication which makes you come across as a crank who won't accept mainstream advice on alcoholism. It singles you out like nothing else and you are really, truly, f.cking alone in this. If you mention what you are doing to anyone, it makes whatever sh.t you've got yourself into 100 times worse, when it should make it better. So,you need help from people going through the same crazy situation, and , trust me, there is no other place out there.



This makes this particular meds thread extremely important for the people on it who can't get support from anyone else. To an outsider it might look like we belong to a cult so that aspect of it is thrown back at us. But the problem is that we know this is real so what the traditionalists say to us just makes us get anxious and stressed. There's no where to turn except here. If you start talking to most people, including doctors, they go all embarrassed and don't want to talk to you or start trying to tell you that you are wrong because their cousin or uncle, or they themselves, got off booze by stopping cold or going to AA.



I try to explain to people that baclofen treatment needs counselling as well, but it isn't the same kind of counselling but the only place you can get it is here, for the moment.



Having someone like SF come here is our worst nightmare. He is like a wrecking ball. He attacks people who are offering their help and advice, drives them away and damages the supportive nature of the forum, deliberately, in my opinion. By doing that, he undermines the therapeutic value of this forum.



If someone were to devise a way of undermining this forum so it and other forums which offer an interesting and important alternative at no cost to anyone who can get access to the internet, they couldn't have done a better job than SF in carrying that out.



I have seen a number of posters here express disbelief but when I look at their background they are people who typically have come off booze on their own or aren't taking baclofen. They come here to get a bit of information about medications out there and they find what might to them seem like a normal every day situation where some guy has decided, out of the goodness of his heart, to spread the word about modern medical advances....what a guy! Then there is us lot hammering away at him. Again, there it is, the classic reaction to baclofen users who understand THEIR OWN NEEDS while onlookers ignore, disbelieve, laugh...



All I can say is that I don't know what made SF do this but he sure figured out a way to dismantle this forum and damage it as a place of refuge and support for those who taking baclofen.



What I would say to anyone reading this is that please, please, do not assume that baclofen is a prank or a hoax. Do not think that you know what the needs are of people taking baclofen. Don't push your own opinion on them on this forum or when you deal with them. This drug works, it alters one's reality, for the good. They are in a highly sensitive situation. They are undergoing serious treatment with a seriously potent drug on their brains. Would you walk into a hospital ward where people were undergoing chemical treatment of their brains and start lecturing them about drugs they are not being given and denigrate them? Any one who can't see that needs to have a hard think about this.



I have seen someone go through this treatment, get good advice, support from outside agencies who have decided to help out, and feel like they were, at last, on their way to recovery. I have also seen senior managers yank that support away because it doesn't fit with the management philosophy and I have seen the person on baclofen crumble before my eyes.



So, don't go into an AA meeting and start preaching to people there that they are wrong. Don't come here and spout off about how we've got it wrong. Think before you post here and think about people who are on a drug based brain treatment, with no effing support in the community and afraid to talk about it. Think about what you are saying when you come here because this place is important to a lot of people because it has given them back their lives when others have not only failed but have obstinately, dogmatically, deliberately and wrongly stood in their way.

bump