Baclofen advice required

[Molly78]

I think Lex is right. Bac works better if you don't drink at all. I know it gets sold as a treatment which "allows you to have the odd drink to be sociable", but I for one find that as soon as I decide I can have that odd drink, I start to go for it, chasing the old high from alcohol, which, let's face it, was the thing that got us all hooked in the first place. The fact is that you don't get the high on bac. But my brain hasn't quite got the message yet (2 years on bac after 3 decades of alcoholic drinking). As Lex says, I still have an obsession with alcohol. The reconditioning of my thought process is bound to take a while after so long as a drinker.

Also, Ameisen noted that if you have a few drinks one day, the next day the temptation to have some more is greater - this was one of the times he took his additional 30mg or so & had to lie down til the urge passed! I certainly notice the same thing.

Just thought I would offer my own experience, since the thread is asking for advice. I know many people are managing to drink less on bac, but it hasn't really worked that way for me.

[Lostinspace]

I hope you continue to give baclofen a chance, Mentium. Whether you want to call it cravings or mental obsession (it really doesn’t matter so long as it makes sense to you), bac can and does get rid of that once you get up to the right dose. That overwhelming desire to get that alcohol high shortly into sobriety really does disappear. In fact, you could have people drinking right in front of you and you won’t be bothered by it, unless, of course, their drunken foolishness is annoying you. But you won’t be “white knuckling” anything. As to whether or not you can have the occasional drink on bac without redeveloping that desire? That seems to be very individual. Some can, some can’t, but that’s not important for now anyway. The important thing is to just keep moving forward toward freedom. And I hate to break it to you, but it’s unlikely that you’ll reach your switch within a couple weeks. It’s possible, but the majority of bac users take a little longer. Just try to be patient and know that, however long it takes, at least you’re doing something about your drinking and not just sailing through life in oblivion. Not caring about alcohol is an amazing feeling. It’s worth the wait.

[nicnak68]

As some of you might know I reached indifference within 16 days but started drinking again when I titrated down to low but I think I'm one of the unusual cases.Going up now but tsking it slower .I also reached my switch whilst drinking loads,from drinking 3 bottles of wine one day to complete abstinence the next day

[Mentium]

Thank you to all for your advice and experiences. Lostinspace, I do intend to stick it out. I'm determined to beat booze one way or another. Lord knows I've tried a lot of the 'others'. At 60 mg today but my family trip to London has slowed things down a bit. Back home tomorrow and a bit more focused.

[knobert]

Hi again ment

I must say that everything I or anyone states is just an opinion.
Including Dr. Olivier Ameisen!

However he did get a paper published in the journal of medicine, and I don't know about you, but he is the reason I ever came here in the first place, and I am sure this has been the case with many of us.

Do not confuse abstinence with indifference. I have used abstinence(will power), to stop drinking numerous times. Always failed because of cravings. I went to AA so many times I can't count and heard many stories of people who had many years of ABSTINENCE, yet to fall victims to cravings, and once they drank, they were gone, instantly back to the addict they once were. Indifference has never been achieved with AA.

Millions of people have quit drinking by willpower alone, but the monkey is still there. In my AA group, there was not a single person who said they did not have cravings. If they did not, many would not have been there. That is why they kept coming.

Now, about having to quit drinking.

Withdrawals, whether minor or severe enough to warrant DTs, are not healthy. It is a serious medical issue. Very few people die from "quote", hard drug withdrawal(heroin, meth, etc.) very few. However that is not the case with alcohol. The mortality rate for acute alcohol withdrawal can be as high as 20 %.

Is anyone out there suggesting that a person put himself through that unnecessarily? If so, why?

The prescribing guide for baclofen, made up by doctors who had treated more than 1500 patients at that time(and that was numerous years ago), said this, "Experience has shown that it is not necessary to be sober to start treatment with baclofen."

Baclofen is the single molecule that has shown an ability to remove the motivation to drink.
Whether it is the first or second drink that causes the motivation, baclofen can stop it.

Dr. Ameisen, with baclofen, called not drinking effortless. That is his definition of indifference. If you choose to drink when there is no craving, that is your choice. In my opinion, if not drinking isn't effortless, then you have not reached indifference.

Dr. Ameisen writes in his book on page 165,

"The lab animals could not tell researchers whether reward, relief, or excessive cravings were uppermost in their minds. It certainly made no sense to distinguish between early onset and late onset addiction in animals deliberately addicted to a substance as part of a scientific experiment. AND THEY DID NOT STOP CONSUMING ADDICTIVE SUBSTANCES BECAUSE THEY UNDERSTOOD THE BEHAVIOR WAS DETRIMENTAL TO THEIR HEALTH OR HAD AN AWAKENING. BUT THEY STOPPED.

All the lab animals were addicted to alcohol when they, not knowing why, stopped.

Dr. A. could not stop drinking. That is why he experimented with baclofen. He was drinking when he first began and stopped after he was into his treatment by willpower, which he says baclofen made easier, until he reached indifference.

Ment, whether it works better one way or not isn't the point. Not drinking and still maintaining a job and "a life" is often not possible.

You keep up your regimen and make your own decisions.

I am very much behind you.

And believe it or not, the people with differing opinions are behind you to.

I truly believe everyone here wants you to succeed.

Wishing you the best
Nothing succeeds like success

Knob :thumbsup: Hang in there

[Mentium]

Thanks Knobert for your support and for a very interesting post.

[lex]

Ment- Certainly I want bac to work for you, as does everyone else here. Moreover, I have no reason to believe bac will not work for you. I am no authority on it, but from everything I have read it seems to me bac has helped many people obtain, and retain, sobriety. It could be that bac helps the majority of, or even nearly all of, those folks who give it a fair shot. I suspect only a small minority of folks who give it a fair shot cannot handle the SEs and thus have to quit taking it. There are such unfortunates, and I happen to be one of them. You, though, are not, it seems.

Knob- I was sorry to read of your experience with AA. I went to a couple of dozen meetings many years ago-some in a major city and some in the country (I'm in New England) and other than some casual fellowship I didn't get anything out of it. However, during the last seven months (in which I've been sober) I have been listening to speaker tapes and the AA big book itself (I got it at audible.com), and I have learned much about the 12 steps. I think the 12 steps is some strong, good stuff, and that many people who wish to quit drinking and stay sober would benefit from a solid understanding of the 12 steps- especially folks who cannot or will not commit to a daily meditation practice. As I understand the 12 steps (from listening to card-carrying AA members on speaker tapes), they can even be worked without going to meetings. Just study the big book and, for steps requiring you to admit things to another person, just use a counselor, psychologist, minister best friend, whatever.

If you're the kind of person who enjoys chatting and fellowship, sure, go to meetings if you wish. But from what I've been learning, the crucial point AA makes is that you need to work the 12 steps and have a spiritual awakening in order to ensure sobriety.

I myself have no problem with the idea of being on a spiritual path. In fact, I drank and did drugs for decades believing it was a spiritual path of sorts. It led nowhere. Now I meditate daily, which is a sort of spiritual path (actually, meditation is a reality-based path but let's not go there right now). Certainly if I could have tolerated the SEs I would have continued to take bac (had I detected a benefit obtained from it). It is just another tool in the tool kit- as is AA (with or without meetings), meditation, exercise, healthy eating, whatever else works!

May your baclofen journey be successful! May you free yourself from the bondage of alcohol!

[Mentium]

Back home after my family break in London and up to 70 MG today. Time to focus!

Just to follow up on Lex's post, I am curious to know what the side effects were for you. I'm not totally free of them, but they do seem fairly trivial.

I should perhaps add that I have tried all sorts of ways to remain happily sober (the 'happily' being the key word), including will power, Rational Recovery, counselling and AA for three periods, most recently last year when I was sober for 10 months and a couple of weeks.

Personally none have worked for the long term and have at best resulted as well described above , a 'time out' for weeks or months. It seems I like alcohol rather too much.

I have quite strong views about AA to be honest. I won't vent here, but personally I think it probably does a lot of harm, though I will grant that it has also probably saved the lives of many people. There is little or no evidence base for its effectiveness and frankly as a pretty avid atheist who does not have any time for the notion of a spiritual dimension to human experience, I heard a great deal of superstitious woo when attending.

..but I have already said too much! No more AA bashing!

[Spiritfree]

Baclofen-Side Effects-Alcohol-LEX

Hi Lex -having taken a few weeks from MWO, I decided to drop in and read a few posts.
Thankfully, you have a way of communicating realities that do not offend others and this is great asset -imo.

In my opinion and my experience, I would like to offer the following summary relative to your thoughts and the thoughts of others:

(1) Baclofen, in and of itself, offers mental and physical challenges to those who take it (or most all).
(2) Removing alcohol from one's life offers many mental and physical challenges, in and of itself.
(3) Should one decide to start taking Baclofen and totally stop drinking, the sides effects from both actions can be challenging and confusing
(4) Alcohol, in and of itself, offers a way of living and thinking and being that goes far beyond mental and physical cravings
(5) Most all people only drink alcohol to change the way that feel or think -or want to perceive their reality in a different way at any point in time
(6) Many of the principles of AA are/can be helpful to all people -addicts or not
(7) Continuing to drink alcohol and taking Baclofen (or other medications) is a farce -most every alcoholic (it is a dream -but not a reality). When a person (most) decide that they have to make a REAL life change beginning with the removal of alcohol, that is exactly what happens -they remove alcohol from their life.
(8) **If alcohol were the real problem for most alcoholics, then the removal of alcohol from one's mind and body could/would be removed in 30 to 60 days, and then all would be ok and life would begin again. Unfortunately for most all alcoholics, alcohol is a symptom driven disease, and as such, there is no amount of craving withdrawal medication that is going to remove the symptoms.
(9) As we continue to read and hear messages/words that Dr. Ameisen wrote, we all must try and keep in mind that he too was an alcoholic and alcoholics sometimes have difficulties in revealing all of the story.
(10) Baclofen will always be a challenge because of its unknown dose dependency, the uncertain side effects for each person, the length of time needed, and its uncertain outcomes relative to the addiction.

Ment- Certainly I want bac to work for you, as does everyone else here. Moreover, I have no reason to believe bac will not work for you. I am no authority on it, but from everything I have read it seems to me bac has helped many people obtain, and retain, sobriety. It could be that bac helps the majority of, or even nearly all of, those folks who give it a fair shot. I suspect only a small minority of folks who give it a fair shot cannot handle the SEs and thus have to quit taking it. There are such unfortunates, and I happen to be one of them. You, though, are not, it seems.

Knob- I was sorry to read of your experience with AA. I went to a couple of dozen meetings many years ago-some in a major city and some in the country (I'm in New England) and other than some casual fellowship I didn't get anything out of it. However, during the last seven months (in which I've been sober) I have been listening to speaker tapes and the AA big book itself (I got it at audible.com), and I have learned much about the 12 steps. I think the 12 steps is some strong, good stuff, and that many people who wish to quit drinking and stay sober would benefit from a solid understanding of the 12 steps- especially folks who cannot or will not commit to a daily meditation practice. As I understand the 12 steps (from listening to card-carrying AA members on speaker tapes), they can even be worked without going to meetings. Just study the big book and, for steps requiring you to admit things to another person, just use a counselor, psychologist, minister best friend, whatever.

If you're the kind of person who enjoys chatting and fellowship, sure, go to meetings if you wish. But from what I've been learning, the crucial point AA makes is that you need to work the 12 steps and have a spiritual awakening in order to ensure sobriety.

I myself have no problem with the idea of being on a spiritual path. In fact, I drank and did drugs for decades believing it was a spiritual path of sorts. It led nowhere. Now I meditate daily, which is a sort of spiritual path (actually, meditation is a reality-based path but let's not go there right now). Certainly if I could have tolerated the SEs I would have continued to take bac (had I detected a benefit obtained from it). It is just another tool in the tool kit- as is AA (with or without meetings), meditation, exercise, healthy eating, whatever else works!

May your baclofen journey be successful! May you free yourself from the bondage of alcohol!

[lex]

as a pretty avid atheist who does not have any time for the notion of a spiritual dimension to human experience, I heard a great deal of superstitious woo when attending.

Ment-

#1- Do you believe in gravity? Gravity is an example of a higher power.

#2- Will you concede there are atoms, waves? That these phenomenon arise and pass away? (Scientists freely concede these matters.)

You don't have to get any more spiritual than this, to utilize the 12 steps (#1) and/or to practice meditation (#2), as a helpful tool in alleviating cravings.

Moreover, either or both can be utilized in conjunction with taking baclofen.

Tools in the toolbox, dude!

Lex

PS- my side effects included closed-eye hallucinations and occasional panicky "jolts" that felt like they might (but did not) culminate in outright panic attacks. The SEs were very disturbing but not disturbing enough for me to seek medical attention

PSS- Of course I'm just describing my own experience, so take it with a grain of salt!

[knobert]

Hi Lex

I hope all is well

I certainly do not want to be misunderstood when it comes to AA. I have the utmost respect for many of the people I got to know there.
I experienced many good things at AA. The people that I became close to are of immeasurable character. When it comes to openness and sincere desire to help, they are hard to beat.
I enjoyed most of my meetings.
Especially my Saturday group. So much so, that I brought doughnuts every time. My attendance was perfect and I went a long time. It cost me a fortune.-- LOL

Lex, I ask one favor of you. When you're sharing baclofen SEs, it might be helpful to know what your dosage was.

Thanks

Take care

Knob :thumbsup:

[lex]

knob-

1) Though I believe AA can be helpful for many people, I myself do not attend meetings so I guess I really shouldn't be saying much about it good or bad.

2) As to baclofen dosage, I ramped up to 40 mgs per day over the course of two months. I experienced the SEs when I hit 35-40 mgs. The SEs slowly subsided as I titrated down to 20 mgs, at which level I had no SEs. Unsurprisingly, at the low does I took I did not experience much in the way of beneficial effects.

Lex

[Lostinspace]

Hi Mentium. I just wanted to add (because I get the sense that I might have been misinterpreted) that I wasn’t at all saying you have to stop drinking in order for bac to work. The majority of bac users don’t and they reach indifference just fine. I also drank (substantially less for quite a while thanks to bac) before deciding for personal reasons that I wanted to stop entirely. I was merely commenting on whether it’s doable to drink after reaching indifference. I’ve read conflicting reports from people here about that issue. But then again, it’s been suggested that if you develop cravings after drinking that you probably never truly reached indifference in the first place. That makes a lot of sense, too. What do I know? I’m just another person who’s taking baclofen and trying to muddle my way through this journey. I apologize for any confusion.

[knobert]

Hey Nic

How are you doing?

Are you getting any sleep?
How's the neck?

Also, has anybody heard from Danathos?

Knob :thumbsup:

[Mentium]

For what it's worth if you are interested, and I wouldn't blame you if you weren't!.. There's a more detailed account of my drinking story, particularly the role of anxiety in the 'tell us your story' thread.

In passing have only consumed about half of my 'usual' amount of booze the last two evenings without consciously deciding not to. No idea if it's the baclofen, but it is unusual to say the least, for me.