Baclofen advice required

[knobert]

Hi Ne

I'm glad you are back.

Where have you been?

Hey Ment

Sounds like you're doin' ok

Don't let the setback bum you out too much. I hope they are not frequent.
Sounds like you have a pretty good handle on things.

Knob :thumbsup:

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Ok, you guys. I have a request. I have Spiritfullofit ignored. Whenever you quote him in a post I have to read it and it makes me CRRAAAAYYZZZZY. Plus, then he feels obligated to respond. He has said he's going to take another vacation, let's hope he's as good as his word this time.

I've been AWOL. Too much going on to post about it all. Don't feel like it. In some ways, same old stuff, different day. But not really. Blah, blah, blah.

But also, seriously, you guys have a great vibe going on here. I'm getting a lot out of it.

[Danathos]

Been away a few days,

I was started on an antipsychotic last saturday that seemed to be doing well for the anxiety side of things, then an antidepressant on wednesday. but Yesterday I went crazy with anxiety and nearly ended up gagging and retching again (gagged twice) whilst babysitting at my mother's house. Gagging and retching is lethal to me since I am phobic of it.

I had also left my Baclofen at home and ended up missing my second dose and taking my third one way too late.

As a result I ended up drinking a few glasses of Gin from my mother's drink cabinet to calm myself down - it was THAT bad . Fortunately I managed not to let myself drink anything else that night or afterwards.

This anxiety is leaving me a bit bloody hopeless at the moment, it wasnt a craving for alcohol that made me drink, it was the anxiety I know that for a fact.

currently at 120mg of Bac p/day. I've no faith that it will do much for the anxiety that causes me to drink anymore

[lex]

All-

This will likely be my swan song, as I suspect I will no longer be welcomed here. Out of true concern for the newbies, I suggest:

1) Baclofen might just work for some people. They titrate up and within a few weeks or months they interact with alcohol pretty much the same as a non-alcoholic would interact with alcohol. They either don’t drink at all, or they have the occasional single glass of wine or whatever. End of story.

2) Baclofen does not work for some people. They titrate up, down, and all around, and if they reach indifference at all it is a fleeting thing for them. They trash the baclofen and move on. End of story.

3) Baclofen serves as a cruel enabler for some people. They continuously tinker with their dose- always believing that as soon as they find the magic dose they will be able to drink like a mature non-alcoholic. On this pretext, they continue to both take baclofen and drink alcoholically-sometimes for years-despite the admittedly horrendous personal consequences. “Once I reach my ‘switch’ [again] it’ll be different.” No end of story.

It is a sad thing to watch. These folks seem unaware they are caught up in a cruel delusion. They reflexively strike back at anybody who reveals the emperor has no clothes. Folks like SF and me fear for the very lives of some of these posters. Yes their very lives.

[Mentium]

On the other hand some of us are perfectly rational and grown up. I plan to go up to a maximum of the low 200s (hopefully less) and if I get no response then I will drop it again.

Like I said - I am grown up and despite everything pretty rational.

[knobert]

Hey Dan

Good to hear from you.
Sounds like you had a tough episode. It's good you got medical help.
Hopefully, in time, it will get better.

After I quit drinking, I would also gag and wretch occasionally, kind of like the dry heaves. It was awful and if your phobic, I can only imagine. Also, things like brushing my teeth and gargling would give me an instant gag and vomit reflex. It took a long time for that to go away, but thank heaven, it finally did.
Make sure you are getting the proper nutrition. When you are feeling that bad, it's even more important. And stay hydrated!
Keep trying to be consistent with the bac.
Keep persevering. I truly believe it will get better with time.

Stay in touch.
Knob :thumbsup:

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Dan, it is SO great to see you post. Very glad to have you here.

Adding a very small dose of an atypical antipsychotic to my depression meds changed everything (for the better) for me. I hope the combination works as well for you.

(As you might or might not know, I have been struggling with depression and overwhelming anxiety [disorder] for about a year now. Probably a little bit more than that. It coincided with a significant drop in baclofen**. But more importantly, it was related to a dramatic increase in stress, anxiety and the devastating loss from two deaths. So that's why I'm on depression meds...It's not necessarily related to drinking or baclofen. I didn't start drinking against my will again for about a year into the depression. I attribute that fact to being WAY too low on baclofen, compared to my normal dose. The first time I got sober with baclofen, this was not at all the case. Just wanted to point that out.)

Sheesh. It is virtually impossible for me to make a short post. Sorry, Dan. Glad you're here. Hang in there. And don't underestimate the baclofen. It is nothing short of miraculous when it works. Rooting for you.

:hug:

EDIT:**Indifference at 320mg/day on Feb 4, 2011. Maintenance about 220mg/day. Didn't drink alcoholically for almost 4 years.
Titrated down over several months, beginning in Dec 2013. By about August or September, taking only 80mg/day.

Started drinking alcoholically around December 2014...At least that's when it stopped feeling like a choice. Didn't get bad until March 2015. Working my way back through depression and alcoholism since then.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Ment, great response. Thanks.

[knobert]

Hey Ment

Is your Avatar your dog?

It's a handsome devil.

Knob

[Mentium]

Yes he is. And a handsome lad indeed - a border terrier. A tad on the dim side, sadly, but a great nature!

Hey Ment

Is your Avatar your dog?

It's a handsome devil.

Knob

[Mentium]

Sorry to hog this thread, but the doubts expressed above in this thread got me re-visiting some of the research I dug around in a couple of months ago. I did a search for 'research baclofen for alcohol addiction'. And there is quite a bit now. The facts seem pretty straightforward and given this: "We need to change the addiction treatment system to one of science rather than ideology”, which was a quote that grabbed my attention a while back and the domination of the addiction industry by ideology rather than evidence led research it is worth, to me anyway, looking carefully at it.

The research seems to show a pretty solid, if not universal impact on cravings and levels of drinking. In most studies subjects on bac did rather better than those on placebos. The impact is not always dramatic but on the other hand most of the studies involve relatively low dosage (30 mg per day or so). There is little systematic research for high dose treatment - that I have found anyway, so one has to go to anecdotal accounts generally speaking. This isn't surprising considering it is still a new approach. The main anecdotal source for most of us here is I guess Dr Ameison, however there are a number of blogs out there which also support high dosage bac as effective. There are also at least a couple of people (that I am aware of - could be more) on another sobriety forum - one that is much busier than this one (soberrecovery) who were dismissed summarily and seem to have gone quiet. PMs to two of them have not elicited any responses. In addiction regarding the high dose argument I have personally met for a consultation with a professor of psychiatry and addiction specialist, who prescribed high dosage (and prescribed it for me) and who believes that is can be effective.

I have had a lifelong dependency on alcohol. It isn't the bottle of spirits or more a day - more like a bottle and a bit of wine. But I am addicted and at times it makes me feel awful. At such times I somehow manage to stop for a few days or weeks and occasionally a few months. But I always come back to it. None of the methods I have tried have worked long term. The cravings and the anxiety that seems to be at the root of my addiction return and so does the bottle. Given all the ways I have tried and given my age I don't have much hope that I will manage long term and reasonably contented sobriety.

So I am willing to try this path. It is a reasoned evidence based approach, given the level of evidence currently.

[Lostinspace]

Mentium - Please know that the doubts that a certain someone who recently popped into this thread planted are not based in reality. He was referring to me, and the truth of the matter is that baclofen has helped me enormously. The reason it took me so damn long (and not 1.5 years - I’m not sure where he got that from) to reach any state of indifference is because I’m one of those rare cases that requires a really high dose to reach indifference. I was scared to go above 325 mg and stayed at that dose for months. Then (for convoluted reasons I won’t bother going into), I actually LOWERED my dose down to 275 mg and stayed there for a long time. I wasn’t reaching indifference because my fear of going up too high in dose prevented me from doing anything to help myself. Also during that whole time, even though I wasn’t indifferent, my drinking had been dramatically reduced, from a liter and half of vodka a day prior to starting on bac, down to just five to seven shots a night, depending on the night. For those that don’t feel like doing the math, that’s a little less than 20% of what I used to drink. Please don’t allow someone else’s misinterpretation of my (and other's) story(ies) and, by extension his planting doubts in other people’s minds which seems to have successfully worked, cause you to lose hope. Bac works if you give it a chance.

[Spiritfree]

Hi Mentium -
You bring up some very valuable and knowledgeable information -which is good for all to see and read.

Please allow me to say something that is not intended to be judgmental or critical. Goodness only knows that I have been slammed against the wall many times for not saying/expressing my points in the right way.

Mentium -I played the alcohol game for over 40 years. In the end, I was at the point of death. I could no longer go an hour, a day, a week, or much less a month without having alcohol in my body and brain. The few hours that I had in the mornings before becoming incapacitated, I spent researching medications for alcoholism. Once that I found out about Baclofen, my hopes soared and I remained vigilant in my efforts to take Baclofen to become abstinent -free from alcohol.

Mentium, here is the point that so many people miss and do not understand nor accept:
ALCOHOLISM (or AUD) is a SYMPTOM driven disease. Alcohol is only used as a means to cope with the symptoms.

I am in no way concerned about what others (on forum) say to me or about me because I know first hand just how deadly and life disrupting alcohol can and is to people. Until they reach the reach the point that I did (and I hope they do not), their words are simply to maintain and retain acceptance among the others who still drink and take Baclofen.

Have you or anyone else noticed the FACT that no else posts that has been cured by Baclofen? They no longer drink?
I wonder why?

--sf--

EDIT: Mentium, I am very grateful if I have planted seeds of doubt in your mind relative to Baclofen for alcoholism. If Baclofen were to be the great cure all to alcoholism, don't you think that all of these discussions relative to Baclofen would be pointless? Also, you once again have someone posting and giving advice relative to Baclofen -and they are still drinking at a level that causes them to be unsafe to themselves and to others. This is not rocket science -so to speak.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Just to be totally clear, Spiritfullofit got sober, and stayed abstinent, for the first time in his life, using nothing but baclofen. His insistence that it isn't a cure is baffling.

[Mentium]

I am puzzled as to why you come to a forum like this so intent on changing people's minds about something that shows so much promise. Despite your insistence there is lots of evidence out there, as my earlier post suggests, that baclofen at low doses has an impact on consumption of alcohol and anecdotal evidence that high dose appears to be a pretty good treatment. Nobody expects a miracle cure for sure - well they would be misguided to do so. As to your point about nobody being 'cured', I have read several reports here of people who have and the psychiatrist I saw recently also reported successful cases. I also see evidence of people leaving the forum because of your apparent need to challenge their attempts to treat themselves with baclofen. I am puzzled by your approach. If it is to be 'helpful' it appears to be having the opposite effect and if so your attempts to assist might be better served if you simply didn't post here at all.

Ameisen points out that alcoholism is a symptom driven disease. However you are misinterpreting him in the way you define his meaning. What he actually says (amongst much else) is that because the symptoms -are- the illness, "knocking out the symptoms of addiction would inactivate the disease by taking away all its weapons'. (pp 37)

I am more than happy to toss ideas back and forth in the spirit of open discussion and I am more than happy to be led by the evidence, but not by somebody who appears to have an agenda of their own which seems, from what I have read in a few shorts days here, such a detrimental impact on this forum.

My advice, which I am sure you don't want, is to let people get on with it. If baclofen doesn't work for them so be it. It isn't your problem.

Hi Mentium -
You bring up some very valuable and knowledgeable information -which is good for all to see and read.

Please allow me to say something that is not intended to be judgmental or critical. Goodness only knows that I have been slammed against the wall many times for not saying/expressing my points in the right way.

Mentium -I played the alcohol game for over 40 years. In the end, I was at the point of death. I could no longer go an hour, a day, a week, or much less a month without having alcohol in my body and brain. The few hours that I had in the mornings before becoming incapacitated, I spent researching medications for alcoholism. Once that I found out about Baclofen, my hopes soared and I remained vigilant in my efforts to take Baclofen to become abstinent -free from alcohol.

Mentium, here is the point that so many people miss and do not understand nor accept:
ALCOHOLISM (or AUD) is a SYMPTOM driven disease. Alcohol is only used as a means to cope with the symptoms.

I am in no way concerned about what others (on forum) say to me or about me because I know first hand just how deadly and life disrupting alcohol can and is to people. Until they reach the reach the point that I did (and I hope they do not), their words are simply to maintain and retain acceptance among the others who still drink and take Baclofen.

Have you or anyone else noticed the FACT that no else posts that has been cured by Baclofen? They no longer drink?
I wonder why?

--sf--

EDIT: Mentium, I am very grateful if I have planted seeds of doubt in your mind relative to Baclofen for alcoholism. If Baclofen were to be the great cure all to alcoholism, don't you think that all of these discussions relative to Baclofen would be pointless? Also, you once again have someone posting and giving advice relative to Baclofen -and they are still drinking at a level that causes them to be unsafe to themselves and to others. This is not rocket science -so to speak.