Things I'm learning about Bac

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Also, I don't understand what's so damn hard about exercising and meditating when it makes me feel good and sometimes even makes me feel great. Yet day after day, I can't make myself get into a routine with it. VERY frustrating. If you find the key, please post it here. Or better yet, write a book/bottle it and sell it for a bazillion dollars. Only after you've told me the secret, though.

[MeJustMe]

I'm just shy of two months AF and the key side effect is tiredness. I have titrated down to 120mg, without any cravings. Yet I seem to be particularly knocked by fatigue when I do anything beyond the normal -- so things like stress, extra physical activity or a really long day writing will get me to the point where I need a lie down.
I also have felt anxious and flat. The anxiety is not as bad as I used to feel before I started taking anti-depressants six years ago, but it is there. I want to stop smoking but it is tied into the anxiety.

I went on an overnight motorcycle ride on the w/end and what should've been a really enjoyable escape was like I was commuting to get somewhere. There were short glimpses of happiness but given I was riding in such beautiful country I could've been enjoying it a lot more.

One of the main problems is that I do not get enough oxygen when sleeping because I snore. I usually wake in the middle of the night with asthma, but on nights where I am exhausted I 'sleep' through and wake absolutely exhausted. It sucks.

So I am at an impasse. I need to stop smoking and exercise to give my lungs a chance and get some proper sleep. The tiredness may not be completely the result of the Bac, but the wanting to nap in the afternoon and not being able to keep my eyes open when I go to bed are a lot like when I was titrating up on Bac.

What to do?

[Ne/Neva Eva]

My first question is whether or not you've considered a CPAP machine so that you can sleep? That seems key to this whole thing...

Somnolence in the afternoon is very real and very hard to deal with, especially if you have a day job. I have used lots of over the counter stuff to stay awake, and lots of coffee. Are you able to rest for a half hour? That was always the best solution for me.

But if you aren't getting good quality sleep at night, it's going to affect everything, even your mood. And if you have asthma, and snore, and smoke, it's likely that a CPAP machine could really help.

Sorry your ride wasn't as enjoyable as you'd hoped, MJM. Hope thing look up soon.

[Lostinspace]

MJM - I’m so sorry your sleep has been so crap recently. Being exhausted really does color everything, including making things that should be enjoyable seem like a chore. I don’t know anything about solving these problems, so I have nothing to add besides soon-to-be nurse Ne’s advice But I really hope you’re able to resolve this problem soon. And quitting smoking is hard as hell. Most people take several attempts to get it right. I know I did, then when I finally quit smoking - I went back to it six months later! Although I only smoke in the evenings now, and a little more on the weekends. I’m gonna try to quit again soon myself. Anyway, just keep trying until it sticks. It will one of these attempts.

[MeJustMe]

Thanks for your feedback guys. I've had a good night's sleep a few nights ago with no snoring etc, although the last two nights, not so good. I want to avoid getting a CPAP machine unless I really have to.
I've been feeling a bit low. I don't know what it is, but I am just not happy. I have really struggled with work, and have not done much this week, even though I have a fair bit on my plate. I am just about two months AL-free, on 120mg Bac a day. Tiredness is a bit better.

[MeJustMe]

An update on my Bac experience. Shortly after I titrated down to 120mg in late November, I began to get cravings. We were to have a party on 12 December and a few days before I was toying with the idea of drinking at the party. But on 11 Dec my mum died. So after I had called everyone to let them know, went to tell my dad in person and stayed with him, I cracked. I felt stunned, and got a bad craving. So I drank heavily that night and most nights since until last Saturday.

In the meantime I titrated up to 185mg again. I reached this dose two or three weeks ago. Last Saturday, I felt really tired in the afternoon (Bac SE) and didn't drink. Then on Sunday, I took 25km of the 85mg evening dose in the mid-afternoon. That has probably helped me to eradicate the cravings, I'm not really sure.

I experimented with taking my evening 60mg dose at 6pm; that was awful -- I felt really dozy and a bit out of it. Fell asleep at 9.30pm.

Every night since last Sat I have either stayed up until 12am-1am or woke up at 12 and was wide awake until 1-2am. Except last night, I fell asleep at 11.30 am and didn't wake for any extended period.

Also I am incredibly thirsty (not for AL!)late at night and during the night. So I often have to wake to go to the toilet during the night.

I wake up in the morning feeling like I've been hit by a truck. It passes in an hour or so and I feel okay.

The main SE is sleepiness in the afternoon and evening, but it isn't consistent.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

MJM, thanks for the update.

I'm so sorry to hear about your mum. I can trace my own slide down the slippery slope to when my Grandmother was diagnosed with incurable cancer and then eventually passed away. It's not the same as losing a mother, especially suddenly, but it was very, very difficult to deal with the emotional upheaval.

Glad you're well on your way! I am, also, and really looking forward to being completely free of both craving and booze. Hopefully it won't be too much longer.

[MeJustMe]

I have been sober for about 2.5 weeks now.

My dose regie is:
8am 50mg
1pm 50mg
4pm 25mg
9pm 50mg

Total 175mg per day. I reduced from 185mg, and about that time my SE were fewer, or less marked.

I rarely feel sleepy in the afternoon, only now an hour or so after my 9pm dose do I feel that way. Which is good, because I can go to sleep! No more insomnia, although I read on the French forum that snoring/ sleep apnoea can be a side effect of Baclofen. I still wake up feeling very tired (that goes after abt an hour) and my joints are also stiff, something I have not noticed before (maybe I'm just getting old!).

I have noticed a few times that I have felt depressed. Yesterday, I went to visit my mum's grave for the first time since she was buried nearly 2 months ago. I did cry at one point, obviously I was sad. But that passed, and in the afternoon I felt quite good and was productive with my work. By later afternoon I became depressed, and it wasn't because of my mum. I have noticed that I have become depressed on Bac after a while of being sober. It did cross my mind to drink. The problem is, when I am in that state of mind it is difficult to do anything proactive like take a prn 25mg dose of Bac, as Amiesen suggested, in times of stress. I just can't do anything healthy for myself except ride it out or drink.

I also take 150mg p/d Effexor for depression; I went up to 225mg last week but ran out of the extra 75mg tablets and now can't find my script. I write this later afternoon and feel okay, but I will have to see my Dr to get another script. That extra 75mg lifts my mood and at the moment it's important that I take it.

[MeJustMe]

Now it has been 3.5 weeks or so, at 175mg per day. I am noticing on occasion the past few days a little whisper of cravings coming back mid to late afternoon. I noticed this yesterday at 4pm, and rushed inside to take my 25mg late afternoon dose. That helped. I don't have that depressed, inevitability about having to drink when I caved in the last few times on Bac, but I will go back to 185mg today.
I have been very tired by 10pm and just have to sleep. Not so bad most nights but sometimes I want to get things done after the kids have gone to sleep but am falling asleep myself not long after!
Lower back aches come and go. I have a history of lower back pain just like this, but only after having done heavy lifting or things like gardening. This appears out of nowhere, sometimes it wakes me in the middle of the night.

Now the fog has lifted with being AL-free, my health is not looking too good. After just over a year of daily smoking 20-25 cigarettes a day (and smoking when drunk in the evening for about 2 years before that) it is taking a toll on my lungs (although I smoked for periods of up to 5-6 years in my 20s and 30s, giving up for about the same amount or more time). I wheeze a little when I exhale, my lungs crackle when lying in bed at night. I have adult onset asthma, and my mother had pulmonary fibrosis. I don't trust online heath checks, although yes I have had a look. I think I might be getting emphysema. I don't want to tell my Dr because it will be noted on my file. Stupid, I know. I'll get myself together and ask her when I see her next week. I have been trying to stop smoking this week, but it is hard.

I have been taking blood pressure tablets for six months, as the BP was sitting on 140/90. Last time my Dr checked a month ago, it was down to 130/80. Yesterday I had an assessment with a personal trainer and it was 158/90 - very high. I was feeling anxious and I thought maybe the prospect of having a PT, but I don't see why. I checked again in the evening and it was still 150/90. Later it was 140/90. Still, that worries me.

I think it's a Bac SE. I have noticed it before, on days I feel inexplicably a bit manic or nervous. I don't have any reason for it; when I am anxious, it usually has a basis for it and I'm pretty good after all these years at picking it.

I also notice I can't concentrate on anything that requires much attention; from reading posts on MWO to reading the newspaper -- I start reading and after a paragraph or two I just lose interest, or just flick though trying to pick the salient points.

So, somnolence, snoring, muscle aches, lack of concentration and anxiety appear to be my possible Bac SEs.

The most distressing side effect is, of course, my indifference to alcohol. NOT! It's worth all the drama, but I do need to make changes in my life to give the Bac the best possible chance and to improve not only my quality of life but also to ensure I have a life.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Morning, MJM.

Emphysema takes years to develop and it would be very, very unlikely that you have it at your age. (I'm guessing you're not over 70? If you are, then I'm very impressed with your computer skills. ) Not that you can't get it younger, but I'm just saying that on the list of things that might be wrong with your lungs, something permanent like emphysema is much lower on that list. I would definitely talk to your doctor about it in case it's an infection or has something to do with your asthma and should be treated early!

Some of the other things might be bac SEs or that might be sobriety SEs but the good news is that either way they'll dissipate. (Like inability to concentrate...) Sorry about the back pain! Especially if it's waking you in the middle of the night! Yikes!

Are you a gardener? I spend a lot of time and money building, making and buying plants for new gardens in our yard last year and then let it all go to squat because I was too depressed to take care of it all by mid-summer. I have my work cut out for me this year. I'll be honest that I'm dreading it, partly because I have lower back problems too and weeding definitely exacerbates the pain.

Anyway. Back to work for me. Hope today is a better day for you! :hug:

[MeJustMe]

Back to square one again. I have to get my Bac script filled today and I'll get an advance dose from the chemist of my 75mg Effexor. That extra amount (from 150 to 225) helped me a lot over Xmas.

I posted on the French forum about my situation and it has been suggested to concentrate my doses more around the time I get cravings. If that doesn't work, then titrate up.

I feel like I have done my bit of drinking, swept out the depression for a bit (or swept it under the carpet) and now want to get back on track.

Thanks Ne re the emphysema, that has been on my mind quite a bit. I will go see the Dr though.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Man, I really hate the idea of "square one" or "day one". That isn't the case, you know. The more sober time you have, the easier it is to have more sober time. In other words, there isn't any reason to think you are "starting over" because you had a drink. The research is absolutely conclusive that the repeated insistence on "day one" is both bad for us, in that it undermines our accomplishments and makes us feel shame, and doesn't really exist.

It's not the consecutive days abstinent, it's the cumulative days.

Cumulative means: increasing or increased in quantity, degree, or force by successive additions

Glad you're going to see the chemist to get things squared away. Interesting what they said on the French forum and something to keep in mind for the rest of us for the future! Thanks for being a link to that place!

[MeJustMe]

Thanks Ne -- and you're right, no point beating myself up about it. I was yesterday, but I was really feeling it -- the hangover. I didn't drink last night and didn't feel like it. Today I'm not that worried as I seem to be back on track.
Every time I have succumbed to cravings while on Bac it has been depression that has got me. I get into that negative headspace where nothing much makes me feel good, I have a lack of motivation to do much at all. This I need to address.
The response on the French forum was, to close up the daily doses -- slowly. So instead of 8am, 12pm and 9pm, they're saying aim towards 10am, 1pm and 4pm BUT to do so slowly to avoid SEs. So begins with 8am, 12pm and 8pm etc. Just an hour at a time with each until you're that the new dose times. My problem is that I am falling asleep at 9pm -- if I took the Bac at 8pm I feel as though I'll be asleep not long after!
One of the key problems I found was not getting enough quality sleep this last time. SO I think that might've been part of the depression. I have to face the fact that, for now at least, my snoring won't just go away so time to go online and get the mouthguard to wear when I go to bed.

[MeJustMe]

So it's been a week. I had 2 poor nights sleep Sun/Mon nights. The first because I got stuck into the Diet Coke and of course couldn't fall asleep until 2am. I was worried because I had to go out on the job early Monday until Tues pm. I was okay on Monday, but again Mon pm found it hard to get to sleep (no caffeine!) until 12.30am.
Back home on Tues, fell asleep by 9.30pm with the familiar Bac somnolence.
Wed, Thurs and today I have felt exhausted most of the day.
Today I was out working and forgot to take Bac with me. So just took my 12pm 50mg at 4.30pm.

I have been feeling depressed again. My wife started taking Bac and got up to 265mg but has had bad SEs and most nights still drinks 2 bottles of wine. Her SEs include flashing lights, bad hand shakes and nodding off at work (in meetings). She has decided to give up on the Bac and titrate down.
I went looking for a titration regime for coming off Bac and couldn't see one. The best I could find was to do it slowly, some saying 10mg every two weeks.

I also found some disturbing comments from long-term Bac users (for spasticity) and they went though terrible withdrawals even after going down slowly.

Now I'm drinking a beer. Oh well...

[MeJustMe]

I haven't had a drink since the last post, so nearly three weeks. I have discovered that posting here is really a good on-line journal of my Bac experience -- probably more for me than anyone else!
To build up my defences against the 4-5pm cravings, I tried changing my dose times as recommended by the French forum. So the idea is that you begin to concentrate your dose times closer to your craving times. I began by delaying my 8am 50mg to 10am. The effect was really bad somnolence, from mid-afternoon through the evening. I would pass out by 8pm some nights, and felt drugged most evenings. I drive as part of my work and I'd have to keep stopping if driving in the afternoon to try to wake up a bit. Not good.
I then tried something suggested on this forum -- to spread out the doses more evenly. So I now take 50mg at 8am, 25 at 12pm, 25 at 3pm, 25 at 6pm and 50 at bedtime. The somnolence has almost completely disappeared. It'll still hit me some evenings, but not nearly as badly as it was. I felt like I was drug-affected, which I guess I was.
I don't know why this works -- some here have suggested there's no reason for it to, in terms of how the body absorbs Bac, but so far it has worked for me. Maybe it's because I've only been taking this dose of Bac for six weeks or so? I'm not sure.
I see my Dr this morning, and one of the things I want to discuss with her is the the anti-depressant Effexor. I think was Ne who pointed out that it has shown in studies to increase AL cravings.
Anyway, although I have felt sad and teary about my mum on occasion, that feels like normal grief. I have not felt depressed, although I sometimes do feel a lack of enjoyment in life. That is contrasted by moments of excitement or joy. Weird. The main thing is that I'm sober, and I have been working incredibly hard the last week or so, being more productive than I have for years. It's a good feeling.