Baclofen as a cure for anxiety?

[nicnak68]

Ive been reading a lot about Baclofen as a cure for anxiety especially Dr Ameison.
I've had anxiety for as long as I can remember but not the kind of a anxiety that I normally read about on here.My anxiety is a social one,when I was younger I found it hard to speak to strangers and went red frequently.My hands would swear and my heart would race.Im still like that now but have learnt how to disguise it better,but still find myself very self aware and in the middle of a conversation I suddenly get self consious and start to blush.I have never been successful in my career but I have always worked and we have our own house and 2 teenage sons.I feel my lack of self confidence has held me back in life and I could have a achieved much more.I haven't stood up for myself or my sons in talking to teachers ect and I'm always thinking about what they are thinking of me.
That's why I can't really relate to people like Dr Ameison as I don't know how he could have achieved so much with so much anxiety and I realise I must have a different sort if anxiety.
I feel like LIS said on another thread about feeling an imposter.At this stage in my like I feel like I put on an act and feel like I'm in the outside looking in.
But I think people see me as funny because I just say what I'm thinking and it isn't always appropriate but in the same vein I absolutely hate upsetting people and can get quite depressed if I think people have take me the wrong way.
I actually believe I've gotten to thus stage in my life without people realising what a fake I am,My friends actually seem to like me and think I'm a nice person.
Reading this back I realise f**ked up I am and have tears running down my face.
But I'll get over it and face life head on as I usually do

[Molly78]

Nic, I think Ameisen probably did have social anxiety. He was in the privileged position of being a medical professional, which means that in his work, he was in a position of power relative to his patients, so he functioned perfectly well. I do remember wondering when I read his book why he didn't seem to have formed any long term relationships with women. He was single when he died & had no children. And I seem to remember he describes many social occasions when he was a "performer" of piano music, which again removes him from the stresses of actually socialising with people as an equal. He achieved a great deal professionally, but not much personally (in my opinion).

You, on the other hand, have successfully negotiated a long term relationship & brought up 2 children, along the way dealing with teachers & other professionals, which is not easy when you suffer from a lack of confidence, & are in a position of subservience - which all of us are when we go to parents' evening at our children's school. I recall those events as some of the most stressful in my life!

Maybe Ameisen felt like an imposter on social occasions? Reading his book, he definitely gives an impression of someone with slightly autistic tendencies - he had problems with close relationships & was quite obsessional in his research (how else would he have come up with his life changing ideas?).

Someone will be along shortly to tell me I am denigrating a wonderful man, haven't read his book properly etc etc (I'm getting a fairly good idea of how this forum works & it's not that different from most internet forums).

I just don't think you can assume that people who are very successful academically & professionally do not have anxieties like the rest of us. He was from a high achieving family & had every privilege in his upbringing & education - who's to say what you might have achieved with a similar background? Don't talk down what you HAVE achieved!

[nicnak68]

I went to the Dr's when I was 21 and in a very bad place,she diagnosed me with anxiety states and gave me vets blockers.my mother had died the year before by choking on her own vomit but I had moved out when I was 17(as soon as I got a job) and to be honest after I got over the shock and grief I was quite glad.She was a milestone around my neck,used to come into the shop I worked in when she was drunk asking me for money ect.I don't feel bad about this although I know I should.
It's funny you should say you thought he might have been in the spectrum because that's how I feel about myself.
I don't even know how to look at people when I'm having a conversation,
Sorry to have all thus tumbling out but I seem to be in a roll and I hate to seem needy or pitiful because I've never been like that.Never ask ppl for help or talk about my problems,ppl who know about my upbringing say they can't believe how normal I turned out ha!
Even my husband says I'm cold and never shiwn my feelings or been romantic.
If I can just get this drinking gone I feel I will be in a much stronger place

[neophyte]

I experienced no relief from my anxiety from high dose baclofen. Once someone gets sober with baclofen, they still need to get through PAWS . Once drinking stopped and I gotten over PAWS. I did feel better, however my anxiety, depression and suicidal thoughts were still there. From then on I went through many many different anti depressant with my psychiatrist to find some medication that would help me. I also did CBT, but that didnt seem to help. I'm now on Escitalopram which is doing wonders for me. Just wanted to add that although most SSRIs tend to do the same thing i.e. block the serotonin reuptake, they also have binding profiles to other receptor ligands, so one SSRI might work while another will. So its important to not give up if you go down that path.

[Molly78]

Nic, I think you are right to get the drinking sorted first, & you're on the way to doing that. Hang in there.

After that, I think neo's point is relevant - you need to look at what might underlie your difficulties. Women on the autism spectrum are a hidden minority. In general women manage to muster enough social skills to cover their problem up, but it doesn't go away. It is now thought that a high proportion of anorexic girls may be unrecognised as being on the autism spectrum. I suspect this applies to women with other mental health problems as well. Not being able to function easily in a social setting is bound to cause anxiety, however well you disguise it.

Why not do some research on women & girls on the autism spectrum? There are a number of books on Amazon dealing with this very subject, & it is becoming much wore widely recognised. Seeking a diagnosis might be the way forward for you, or at least excluding it as a possibility, since you have clearly thought that might be at the root of your difficulties.

Just keep going with the baclofen for now, & keep in mind that the alcoholism might have its roots in a problem which is way beyond your control, & which can be investigated.

[Otter]

My wife's condition didn't get completely better until she took Mirtazapine in addition to baclofen. Our doctor said he would try the first line anti-depressants first, SSRI's. I had found references to Mirtazapine being useful in alcoholism. It has a different method of acting which seemed to me to make sense. We had to go through the usual experimentation before getting the Mirtazapine, and the combo worked.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Woah, Nellie. lol.



We went from social anxiety to autism and then back again. Whew. My head is kind of spinning.



I can't much speak of Ameisen's personal life, since I know very little about it other than what he published in his book. I do know that he was engaged when he died. Which is a bit of a heart-breaker on top of everything else.



As to the anxiety you feel around other people, Nic, I don't think it's terribly unusual. I'm pretty outgoing, and not really shy. But I do have a close friend that is very shy, and I can make her very uncomfortable if I'm not paying attention. She's not alcoholic, by the way, or autistic. She's just...shy.



I also have a sister-in-law who has had trouble this year with one of her son's teachers. She's been a lot more patient, if I put it kindly, than I would have been.



Basically, what I'm trying to suggest is that it sucks to feel badly about yourself. We are all made up differently. I can tell you one thing for sure, though, and that is that I have yet to meet someone who is recovering from our disease who doesn't often feel like shite about themselves. And it just isn't right.



This is a time to be extremely gentle with yourself. Focus on the fact that you're facing down a dreaded disease, because that's the truth. This disease kills more people than we can count. The fact that you're fighting it, on your own terms, makes you a superhero. The fact that you have a family with you makes you doubly blessed.



I don't know if you read my thread the other day when I posted this, and I don't know if this will help, but I've been living and breathing this song for a week now and it fills my heart with joy for another day to keep up the fight. If you're not Christian (and I'm not) please excuse the imagery. It's still my favorite version to watch, though, because it brings me peace. When I listen to it, I often think of people on here. The ones that came before and the ones yet to come. And the ones who posted on my thread that day! I hope it brings you a measure of peace...



Natalie Merchant Kind and Generous

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lt1mHFD43ws

[nicnak68]

I'm actually quite a strong person ,I think I have to be to put up with this all these years without having a meltdown but now and again I feel very sorry for myself and think "what's the point".... But I'm pulling it back now and the fight goes on

[Molly78]

There are endless debates on this forum about what might be the "underlying cause" of an individual's alcoholism, as indeed there are probably multiple factors for each of us.

And as with the dosage, SE, reaching the switch, titrating down, it is individual for that person. I don't think we should be telling Nic that her social anxiety is "not unusual", as though it doesn't count. Otter makes the point that his wife responded to one particular drug out of all the ones she tried, & that he had some knowledge that this might be the case. It's for Nic to think about & try to decide what might be her particular underlying difficulty & how to address it. All we can do is read her posts & offer suggestions. I think that's why she started the thread. So that is what I have done.

I hope others will be along with different suggestions for her to consider. Probably some will be valid, some not so useful.
But all worth considering rather than dismissing out of hand.

[Molly78]

And Ne - Ameisen's entire book is about his personal life. It's his own account of a personal journey. It's not unreasonable to read it & draw your own conclusions about him, or at least speculate about him. When people write about themselves, they must expect us to do that.

[Stevo]

My wife's condition didn't get completely better until she took Mirtazapine in addition to baclofen. Our doctor said he would try the first line anti-depressants first, SSRI's. I had found references to Mirtazapine being useful in alcoholism. It has a different method of acting which seemed to me to make sense. We had to go through the usual experimentation before getting the Mirtazapine, and the combo worked.

I do not write this to discount the help that your wife may have received from mirtazapine Otter,I want you to know this.I am glad that it has been helpful for her.

I was on mirtazapine for near 10 years.I continued to take it as I believed that the prescribing doctors knew more about what they were doing than I did.I was actively drinking regularly for most of that time but when I did stop drinking I started telling them that I didn't think it was doing anything for me and maybe it was not the right SSRI for me to be using.Their response was to continue upping the dose,saying that it will work.
I wound up on 90mg a day and was hallucinating,it was scary and not a nice place to be.It was very strange to say the least.I have spoken to medical practitioners since who are a little amazed that such a dose was being prescribed for me.
I decided to ween myself off of it earlier this year and jumped off at 12.5mg I am pretty sure it was and I experienced terrible withdrawal symptoms which lasted a couple of weeks.It was like I was not in touch with reality at all.
I put on quite a bit of weight when on Avanza and nothing I did could remove it.I was exercising regularly at this stage as it was prior to my foot injury kicking in.
When I stopped taking it the weight magically fell off and I returned to a normal BMI for someone my size.
I actually lost so much weight that I went down 2 jean sizes and said to my doctor that I was a little worried about the sudden weight loss.He did the usual blood tests and what not and concluded that I was healthy but I had been in fact terribly over-weight before.

Anywho,I guess my point is that for me I found mirtazapine to be an experience that I wish that I hadn't have gone through.

Due to recent events I have spoken with my doctor about possibly going back on an SSRI which he would happily prescribe but my experience with Avanza scared me so much that I am very hesitant to go down that route again.
I know that there are many different forms out there and maybe one of them would be more suitable for me but I just can't shake the feeling that I would end up having a similar experience.

As always this is only my experience and outcomes may be different for others,I just thought I would throw it out there.

Cheers Stevo.

[Mentium]

Nicnak, I believe my attraction to alcohol as a 'solution' to social anxiety was where my problem with it began. As a teenager living in a country with no drinking laws (Hong Kong) I was able to indulge this as much as I wanted. I was terribly shy around girls and as we moved around so much as an expat family we were never in one place long enough for me to make real roots, so I always felt I was on the outside looking at what other people were doing. I grew up anxious and 'shy' as we used to call it and I have had a lifelong battle with anxiety and tension. Despite that I did OK in my career, which is only to say that I'm not sure shyness necessarily holds us back. Often we just find ways of dealing with it or working around it. In the end my job required me to stand up in front of large groups of head teachers to present policy and stuff - and they take no hostages! I don't think I was terribly good at it because I was so nervous - on the inside anyway. Alcohol the night before helped but it did of course also make my anxiety worse in the day. And like you, I always felt I was faking it. I suspect many of us do, drinkers or not.

Reading Ameisen's book made me hope that baclofen offered a solution to anxiety as well as addiction. It certainly seems to me to read that way. His anxiety was all consuming as I recall it and the almost magical way baclofen seemed to make it evaporate was a big attraction to me. Prof Chick said quite straightforwardly when we talked about this, that he was not so sure it was a cure for anxiety - he sounded a cautionary note, which disappointed me I have admit.

So I'm still a bit puzzled. I can only think that booze wrecked Ameisen's life to such a degree that being free of it helped him to deal with the anxiety as an 'extra', but that doesn't ring true to me. Perhaps baclofen simply works differently from individual to individual. I guess time will tell.

[Lostinspace]

Mentium - I think you’re right. I think that, as with all things related to bac, there’s a wide variety of individual responses. I know Stevo has talked about having a radical removal of his anxiety and help with PTSD. Others report increased anxiety after starting to titrate up. For me, I experienced some relief of anxiety during the first few months of my titration. But in retrospect, I think this was largely due to the fact that I was drinking only a small fraction of what I used to at that point. Drinking 24/7 causes anxiety, both through physiological processes, and through the stress of having to hide it from everyone (and constant fear of getting caught). Being relieved of that burden was enough to bring my anxiety down in itself. I know that as I continued to go up on bac, any anti-anxiety effect I initially felt seemed to dissipate. My panic attacks were, once again, just as bad as ever. Those obsessive worries, over even the tiniest of things, came right back and started to dominate my mind again. I have to use another medication (ativan - prn) to deal with my anxiety and panic disorder. There are quite a few of us here who need other medications to truly get our anxiety under control. The good news is that bac still helps with drinking even for those of us that don’t experience anxiety relief from it. I don't have any fancy neurochemical explanation for why that happens. I only know that I've reached indifference despite the fact that bac didn't treat my underlying anxiety (which is what caused me to start drinking excessively in the first place).

[Molly78]

Fred, that's a very positive way of looking at anxiety - I like it! Possibly your "anxiety" at work was what drove you to be productive & get things done? Sometimes, what we regard as negative aspects of our personality are seen by others as positives. I'm reading a really interesting book at the moment called "Neurotribes" which talks about how much people with autism contribute to society, especially in silicone valley where a high proportion of individuals are "on the spectrum". And these people are some of the most anxious on the planet. There's a fine balance though between anxiety that cripples you & anxiety that keeps you on your toes, I guess everyone has to find this balance, & some might need help from medication.

[Molly78]

Molly,

What I took from the book was that he seemed to be a serial womanizer. The only girlfriend he ever really acknowledged having was the ex who showed him the article about the rats taking baclofen and not having cocaine cravings anymore, and he repeatedly mentioned that she was saddened that he wouldn't commit to her and was trying to earn his respect. Reading between the lines, there were probably a lot of other women in the picture he was leaving out because it would have made him look less sympathetic.

I personally abhor anyone who treats the emotions of others like that, but that should not detract from his discovery. The womanizing was probably a compulsion along the same lines of his drinking.

You could also make a good case for autism being at the root of his inability to form long term relationships in my opinion. Not that all womanisers are autistic. And as you say any negative aspects of his personality do not take away from his wonderful discovery.