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    Peace

    As a long time reader, lurker and supporter of this Forum, and occasional contributor, I have been following events of the past few weeks here with some interest and dismay.

    I'd like to make some observations in the hope that the majority of readers will find them helpful.

    The principal purposes of this particular Forum are Medication Research and Support. It seems like these two purposes are in conflict. I happen to be a big believer in baclofen therapy for unrelenting craving, especially when other approaches like self-discipline, AA and other medications don't work. But baclofen therapy does have side effects and a long term baclofen regime can be daunting.

    I also conclude (as do others here) that while baclofen therapy can effectively eliminate craving, it is too much to ask for it to resolve fundamental life issues like depression, anxiety and other mental illness, as well as work/life balance issues, family and marital tensions, persisting traumas and spiritual maladies. So, it seems to me that expressing doubts or concerns about baclofen efficacy is legitimate, and that there may well be medications that are being discovered or will be discovered that work better. Researching, reporting and discussing these issues on an internet forum seems to me to be a legitimate activity. Medication is still not a totally effective or benign answer to alcoholism and debate seems appropriate.

    How this discussion unfolds is another question. I would like to think we could debate the pros and cons of different approaches to medication...and freedom from addiction...in a civilized and courteous manner, but given who we are...alcoholics...I can understand the discord. I don't like it but I can understand it. I would say...let it go.

    The problem arises, I think, when we consider the second prong of the Forum...Support. It seems to me that a raucous debate over controversial medical treatment on the same forum where people, some in fragile states, come for support is inconsistent and can be very unhelpful. It should go without saying that the name calling and invective that we have seen over the past few weeks has no place on a support forum -- ever. This behavior, including the use of real world names, some of which has been displayed by some of my long time friends on this forum, is really deplorable. And I would include those on both sides of the recent antagonism and ask them, for their own sakes and for all of our sakes, to please stop.

    Perhaps one solution would be to separate the informational and support prongs of the Forum. The second solution might be for all of us when we come here to pause before we hit the reply button and consider whether our contribution is really helpful to those who have come here for support.

    Peace.

    Cassander
    With profound appreciation to Dr Olivier Ameisen for his brilliant insight and courageous determination

    #2
    Whats wrong with the meds forum is ridiculous bickering, ongoing for years! its crazy. i just kind of glance over the threads where people get stuck into each other, i dont really know the crux of the issue is. If you have a problem with someone block them. Changing this behavour is difficult, it requires active moderation, delete the trash and ban where appropriate. The victims in this are the new people coming here for support and education on what options there are out there but get scared off. Maybe they will never know about baclofen or whatever new medication that may take its place.
    01-01-2014 - Indifference reached, success with high dose Baclofen 295mg.

    Baclofen prescribing guide

    Baclofen for alcoholism - Consolidated Information - Studies, prescribing guides, links

    Comment


      #3
      That's really not a bad analogy, Fredson. It is just like having a really bad neighbor that brings the whole neighborhood down.

      Neo, I don't know how you can remain so ambivalent. I wish I could. I know it hurts the new people. But so does the trash left out in the street from the crack house. I, personally, can ignore it. Even the attacks on me personally. But then where does that leave the new people? Particularly when this troll used baclofen alone to get and stay sober, lies constantly, belittles everyone else, and posts trash about red-heads being more susceptible to alcoholism?

      Where and how do you draw the line, Neo? I mean that. Even after all these years, I haven't figured it out.

      Cassander, I figure that you mean for the best. And for the life of me, I've been meaning to reach out to you for eons offline. But if you've really been reading all of this, are you telling me that you think I should just...stop? Do you know that I've done that? Several times. To no avail. Is there room for people to post information about other medications? Oh my God, yes. It is so important! Is there a reason to have something other than baclofen on the front page? Of course. I've never denied it. But if you really have lurked and actually read on a regular basis, can you really honestly say that you think there is a peaceful place to be had here?

      If that's the case, please feel free to email me and I will listen with an open mind and heart. I know Carl thinks he's a good guy. I tried to believe it. But have you actually read what he's written? Sheesh.

      But I will listen. Open minded and hearted. Seriously.

      Comment


        #4
        deleted
        Last edited by Spellers; September 18, 2016, 01:02 PM. Reason: privacy concerns with this site

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          #5
          deleted
          Last edited by Spellers; September 18, 2016, 01:01 PM. Reason: privacy concerns with this site

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            #6
            Thanks, Spellers. I'm glad that someone else has noticed we aren't allowed to discuss or even speculate over SE without being bombarded by literature which "proves" there aren't any. I have been debating with myself recently whether to just pack up & leave the site. I'm a lot easier to get rid of than Spirit, as I don't have the time, money or emotional energy to expend on justifying myself constantly.

            Cassander is right about splitting the support & information sides. Those who want an endless stream of obscure clinical trials, or lots of stuff about strange "natural" substances could go to the information side. Those who want to discuss their own personal experience of baclofen could go to the support side, where people would be allowed to offer thoughts & suggestions without being shouted down.

            Problem is, I don't think you could keep the information gurus out of the support side. They are so sure they are right, they can't resist telling you about it. Then they start fighting with each other & a whole thread goes down the can.

            I agree Spirit is a troll, but he is just the most extreme example. There are plenty of others who just have to put their finger in the pie & tell you you don't know what you're talking about, even when you are discussing a personal issue that happened to you, or offering a possible solution to someone else's crisis.

            I don't know the answer. The internet is a wonderful & terrible place simultaneously. I guess we all venture on it at our peril.

            Comment


              #7
              Wow. Just wow. -tk
              TerryK celebrates 6 years of sobriety and indifference to alcohol thanks to baclofen

              Comment


                #8
                As one of the newcomers described above I would like to say that the bickering that was going at full tilt when I joined up here a few weeks ago really put me off to begin with. That, combined with the sudden onset of some slightly unpleasant SEs (I'm titrating up at the moment) made me pause to re-consider the wisdom of what I was doing.

                However despite being alcohol dependent I have a degree of intelligence and perception I think and I tuned out the poisonous element, put them on ignore and after some thinking decided to carry on. What was the alternative? Cutting off my nose to spite my face comes to mind. It has made the forum a lot more digestible and a lot more helpful generally.

                I do however see other discussions about SEs and such being sucked into what are clearly interpersonal issues and that is a shame - especially given that on the whole most members here seem a decent and well meaning bunch. Maybe a reminder now and again that the forum is at its strongest when it is helping newcomers like me is worth bearing in mind. It isn't about personal egos, slights or real or imagines insults.

                I would add that I have invited at least a couple of new members from a forum I am on that has twice shut down baclofen threads. They are here too now and reading what guys like us are saying.

                In the absence of moderation I suggest that not letting the drama get the upper hand would be a good strategy.

                Comment


                  #9
                  fredson how do you maintain sobriety with all that resentment?

                  Comment


                    #10
                    I haven't read or kept up with the threads properly. For me TSM (+me) did the trick nicely, and I've given input whenever I feel it's relevant.

                    I do have various opinions on Baclofen, but I believe they would be harmful to blurt out here, and because I've not kept up I don't feel qualified to speak them.

                    I am however able to say very shocked to hear that side effects are still being down played.

                    Side effects were a major stumbling block for me, my now husband refers to it as 'that time when you were a zombie'. At the time support was poor, MWO meds members told me to take more, push on. Ok that was well meaning but I had to fight it on my own, and decided to take external advice to stop HDB and ask to try TSM. Even then I was told it was a bad decision...................it has been the best decision of my life.

                    I can hardly remember that time, but I do remember Loop telling me during a phone call shortly before his death that he was truly sorry for not being supportive. He told me "you took that surf board, against the wave of the meds board, and you rode that surf". He told me he was in awe of me.

                    Yes I'm one of those 'brave' people who does what feels right for me, but that doesn't mean I don't need support, or that it isn't hard and tiring for me.

                    Back to bac, it might really help some people if SEs were acknowledged, then those who suffer can feel heard and valued, and not feel that in someway they are wrong.
                    I used the Sinclair Method to beat my alcoholic drinking.

                    Drank within safe limits for almost 2 years

                    AF date 22/07/13

                    Comment


                      #11
                      I can't say that I have had my experience of SEs dismissed. I wonder if there is so much conflict about the issue is because they are so varied and for some they seem quite significant and for some negligible. If everyone has a different experience and is talking from that position it isn't surprising that there is disagreement.

                      Mine have varied. At 100 mg more or less now they have subsided a bit this last day or two.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        deleted
                        Last edited by Spellers; September 18, 2016, 12:59 PM. Reason: privacy concerns with this site

                        Comment


                          #13
                          deleted
                          Last edited by Spellers; September 18, 2016, 12:58 PM. Reason: privacy concerns with this site

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Hi Cass -and I thank you for this post.

                            Cass, I think that you have made a perfect summary of our current situation here on the forum.
                            I admittedly and apologetically acknowledge that I have been a part of the problem relative to the ongoing conflict that exists.

                            There have been two occasions where I have posted on a support thread regarding abstinence as an answer and I was quickly and rightly told that I had no business interfering in these threads (thank you Stuck). Since that point in time, I have stayed away from posting anything on these threads or any other threads unless I was referred to on said threads. After Stuck pointed out to me that what I was doing was not only not helpful, but possibly harmful, I immediately stopped posting to said threads. I had to first step back and really analyze my own behavior, and having done so, I realized that Stuck was 100% correct.

                            Your points regarding research and support are very accurate in my opinion -they do seem to be in conflict, and I think that this is where much of the problems have come to the point to where they are now.

                            One of your most important and valuable points that you make is for us to hit the 'pause' button before we actually post a message. In fact, I have recently tried, with some success, to wait until the next day before I actually send a message (post). At least 75% of the time, I delete the post that I was going to make the evening prior.

                            Cass, none of us are perfect, we all make mistakes, we all say (write) things that we wish that we had not, but I do think that we are all shooting for the same goal -to live happy and free without alcohol. I respectfully request, of myself and of my fellow members, that we stop this bickering and consider not posting on threads that others start -if our posts are mean spirited and contain personal negative comments. This in no way infers that we agree with what someone else is posting, nor does infer that we like or dislike that person, it only means (by not posting) that we can respect the other members of the forum enough to allow them to read and/or participate on the forum without them feeling as though they are in the middle of a war zone.

                            ---sf---

                            Originally posted by Cassander View Post
                            As a long time reader, lurker and supporter of this Forum, and occasional contributor, I have been following events of the past few weeks here with some interest and dismay.

                            I'd like to make some observations in the hope that the majority of readers will find them helpful.

                            The principal purposes of this particular Forum are Medication Research and Support. It seems like these two purposes are in conflict. I happen to be a big believer in baclofen therapy for unrelenting craving, especially when other approaches like self-discipline, AA and other medications don't work. But baclofen therapy does have side effects and a long term baclofen regime can be daunting.

                            I also conclude (as do others here) that while baclofen therapy can effectively eliminate craving, it is too much to ask for it to resolve fundamental life issues like depression, anxiety and other mental illness, as well as work/life balance issues, family and marital tensions, persisting traumas and spiritual maladies. So, it seems to me that expressing doubts or concerns about baclofen efficacy is legitimate, and that there may well be medications that are being discovered or will be discovered that work better. Researching, reporting and discussing these issues on an internet forum seems to me to be a legitimate activity. Medication is still not a totally effective or benign answer to alcoholism and debate seems appropriate.

                            How this discussion unfolds is another question. I would like to think we could debate the pros and cons of different approaches to medication...and freedom from addiction...in a civilized and courteous manner, but given who we are...alcoholics...I can understand the discord. I don't like it but I can understand it. I would say...let it go.

                            The problem arises, I think, when we consider the second prong of the Forum...Support. It seems to me that a raucous debate over controversial medical treatment on the same forum where people, some in fragile states, come for support is inconsistent and can be very unhelpful. It should go without saying that the name calling and invective that we have seen over the past few weeks has no place on a support forum -- ever. This behavior, including the use of real world names, some of which has been displayed by some of my long time friends on this forum, is really deplorable. And I would include those on both sides of the recent antagonism and ask them, for their own sakes and for all of our sakes, to please stop.

                            Perhaps one solution would be to separate the informational and support prongs of the Forum. The second solution might be for all of us when we come here to pause before we hit the reply button and consider whether our contribution is really helpful to those who have come here for support.

                            Peace.

                            Cassander
                            Last edited by Spiritfree; January 1, 2016, 08:24 PM.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Posting about side effects.

                              I would like to weigh in here on posting about side effects. I understand that there are posters that feel they had undocumented SEs, did not receive support when posting about them, and that was hurtful. However, in my experience, the culture of this forum does not, in any way, discourage people from posting about Baclofen side effects in general. I have posted numerous times about some difficult side effects and the lengths I go to mitigate them. I have received nothing but support and great ideas on how to minimize them.

                              M
                              Last edited by Mom21961; November 15, 2015, 04:22 PM.
                              http://baclofentreatment.com/
                              http://www.theendofmyaddiction.org
                              http://www.theendofmyaddiction.org/f...or-alcoholism/

                              Comment

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