Thinking about abstention and AA.

[Mentium]

My head is very much anti AA. On the other hand the two longest periods of sobriety I've had were when I was attending AA - most recently last year for ten months. I should perhaps add that I'm an atheist and even the notion of spirituality is anathema to me.

I'm taking baclofen and I'm currently at 140 mg, though no impact in terms of indifference yet. My drinking does feel different though. I start later and it takes longer to down my 'required' dose. Last night I drank more than normal and I have woken at 4 am again but with a headache and I rarely get a hangover normally.

Reading posts here some people suggest that abstaining makes baclofen work better. Personally I don't get that as I am taking it because I am seeking a state of mind where abstention is 'effortless' as they say. And some people of course suggest that it makes no difference either way.

AA is rarely mentioned, certainly in this part of the forum. I wonder if the baclofeners here have views about it.

[Molly78]

I had a good look at it, read the books, thought it might help me kick start a life without alcohol, but in the end decided against it. Also wasn't sure how they would regard someone taking medication for alcoholism. And then there's the anon thing. I don't quite trust it & worried about seeing someone I knew there, or rather them seeing me.

But I expect you are wanting actual experience from people who have been there.

It's interesting you mention your "required dose". Some on here have talked about "drinking through your switch", which I think means pushing yourself to drink even when you're starting to feel indifferent or actively disliking alcohol. I don't know how that works either!

[Mentium]

I know you aren't seeking reassurance or even thinking about attending AA, but even so just to respond to your concerns. Quite a few AA members I knew took medication, though they didn't talk about it much. Lots of anti-depressants of course. Baclofen would be another kettle of fish if one was t be frank about it in a meeting.

As to anonymity - I was nervous about it when I first went. I was a senior manager in an Education Department and the thought of meeting, say, a head teacher, who I had dealings with, scared me. I didn't, and in fact I realised pretty soon that everyone was there for the same reason. Lots of them were friends outside too. It was not in anyone's interest to be indiscreet or break anonymity. I never heard of it, though that is not to say it doesn't happen.

My main objection was the higher power thing. I just couldn't get it. The Steps also assume real character failings in the addict so there is a contradiction at the heart of the fellowship (disease vs character defects)

I found the power of AA to be in the fellowship of others with similar stories. But it doesn't take long before people start insisting that you don't make 'real' progress unless you treat is as a spiritual programme.

I'm really struggling with poor sleep and psychological issues and I am thinking I might abstain while I wait this out. I think I can do it on my own and with on-line support. Quite a few people here and in studies seem to support that as a better route, though as I say in the OP, many here don't. Worth a try.

[JackieClaire]

Hi there Mentium,
Just thought I'd jump in from the other side of the Pennines (Newcastle)......
Thought SMART may be of some interest to you as their approach is secular and science based.

UK SMART Recovery

Go on give 'em a ring.

[Molly78]

Jackie, I've never heard of them & they sound really interesting. I wonder why doctors in the UK aren't referring to them? Or not that I am aware of. Yet they clearly operate in the UK.

Thank you for bringing that to our notice.

[Mentium]

Thank you Jackie. I am aware of SR but the last time I researched them there were no groups in the UK. If there is one Newcastle way I could probably make it. It is about 80 minutes from here. It is possible one of the Scottish ones are closer too.

Many thanks once more. Will email a couple of the contact people and find out more!

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Mentium, generally discussions about AA in this section of the forum end up getting pretty rancorous. That said, I'll share my experience.

I've been in and out of the rooms for 20 years. I love AA, and loathe it at the same time. I hate the idea that we are alcoholics because we have "character defects" and are morally inferior and spiritually disconnected. That's just wrong. It's the human condition to have character defects, struggle with one's own morality and feel spiritually disconnected. Philosophers have been discussing these things time out of mind. My point is, it's not unique to alcoholics and it's not relevant to alcoholism.

AA did more harm than good for me, because I truly believed I drank because I was a bad person. It's taken me years to get over that, and it was a direct result of getting sober with baclofen. I realized if I could take a pill to stop drinking, and was still the same person to begin with, then everything I learned in AA was horseshit.

That said, I am a spiritual person. I think the program is a beautiful one, and that people ruin it. (ha!)

The last AA meeting I went to was post-indifference. I wanted to share my experience strength and hope about baclofen. The first person to speak had 20 years of sobriety, it was her anniversary. One of the very first things she said was that she had never had to rely on other drugs (meaning medications) to get and stay sober. And she felt sorry for people who replaced their addictions by taking anything else, even antidepressants.

Needless to say, I haven't been back.

[kronkcarr]

I've been in AA 2 times and I did stay sober. I also started a Rational Recovery group and stayed sober. I preferred the RR way: I don't drink because I don't like the things I do when I drink. It was based on Albert Ellis's work. I believe it has changed over the years.

The thing I didn't like about AA is the message that if I "slip" and have 1 drink all my sobriety is lost. I don't believe that's true. I didn't want to live my life constantly being reminded of something I couldn't/shouldn't do.

[Mentium]

Thank you for your responses guys. SOFTC just so you know, the post ou were responding to concerned SMART recovery, though it was clear you were talking about AA of course. I'm going to get in touch with SMART. I have the same sorts of feelings as Ne, about AA i. E. Mixed, and I don't think I could tolerate the BS any more.

Thing is I'm not sure I can do the baclofen thing. The side effects are getting worse and last night I couldn't breathe as easily as I should. I also got very little sleep. I feel something like panic thinking about going higher and only a bit less at having to go down so slowly. I feel trapped by it and when you add the depression into the mix...

I'm not a whinger as a rule. I look for the positives in life and I hate whining but I'm feeling pretty frightened right now.

[kronkcarr]

Thing is I'm not sure I can do the baclofen thing. The side effects are getting worse and last night I couldn't breathe as easily as I should. I also got very little sleep. I feel something like panic thinking about going higher and only a bit less at having to go down so slowly. I feel trapped by it and when you add the depression into the mix...

I'm not a whinger as a rule. I look for the positives in life and I hate whining but I'm feeling pretty frightened right now.

I like your idea of abstaining while taking bac. Give it a shot. I rarely drank while I was titrating up. When I did drink it was 1-2 drinks because I'd have to nap. The time I over drank my hangover was horrendous.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Thank you for your responses guys. SOFTC just so you know, the post ou were responding to concerned SMART recovery, though it was clear you were talking about AA of course. I'm going to get in touch with SMART. I have the same sorts of feelings as Ne, about AA i. E. Mixed, and I don't think I could tolerate the BS any more.



Thing is I'm not sure I can do the baclofen thing. The side effects are getting worse and last night I couldn't breathe as easily as I should. I also got very little sleep. I feel something like panic thinking about going higher and only a bit less at having to go down so slowly. I feel trapped by it and when you add the depression into the mix...



I'm not a whinger as a rule. I look for the positives in life and I hate whining but I'm feeling pretty frightened right now.

I'm very sorry you're feeling frightened by this. It's something that, at this point, I take for granted. But I do remember being very scared on several different occasions. And honestly, that's worse than anything else in terms of finding success. Fear can overwhelm everything else.



That said, I hate to see you give up this early in the game. We know two things. We know that titrating up quickly leads to more SEs, and you've generally only gone 3 days before going up. And we know that drinking makes everything worse.



So I would suggest that maybe you stay at this level, or even 130mg, until the SEs subside and do your best not to drink. Then you can decide, with a rational brain, what you'd like to do for the future.



There is something very important you should know. None of the SEs are permanent. None of them are life threatening. Baclofen is a very safe drug. Even for the likes of us! When you are confronted with that fear again, you can remind yourself of these facts...



Those zaps in your hands and the visual and auditory disturbances do end. They stop. Really and truly.



Hang in there, Ment. Regardless of what you decide, we are here for you. :hug:

[Mom21961]

Thing is I'm not sure I can do the baclofen thing. The side effects are getting worse and last night I couldn't breathe as easily as I should. I also got very little sleep. I feel something like panic thinking about going higher and only a bit less at having to go down so slowly. I feel trapped by it and when you add the depression into the mix...

Mentium,

I have been where you are. There was a time when I had to stay at a dose for many weeks before getting the nerve to begin titrating up again. At that time I went up only 1/4 of a 25 mg pill once a week and it made all the difference. I could gradually titrate up faster without an increase in side effects. I would suggest staying where you are for awhile. Generally the side effects will ease. Try to reduce your drinking which helps the side effects as well. If you combine Baclofen with the new program, that may help you achieve success, even if you stay at your current dose for an extended period. I don't think it has to be one or the other.

Good luck!

[Mentium]

Thank you Ne and Mom. I'm going to follow your advice to the letter. I'll stay on 140 for another four or five days and attack the drinking. Unless I continue feeling like this, in which case I'll have to back up a bit I'll hold off on a decision.

Much of the above is in the 'my journey' thread. Apologies for the duplication. Don't mean to randomly spam the forum.

[Renorach]

I have been attending AA off and on for two years. It honestly got me started on the path of sobriety, but has not been the full answer. I tried the sponsor route and that was definitely not an option. I simply found it difficult to call every day when most days I was fine. Also, my sponsor wanted me to attend additional meetings where he was present and those days/times were just not good. I still attend on a frequent basis and find the wisdom and laughter great therapy.

At a recent meeting, a man spoke about his recent relapse after more than 3 years of sobriety. He said he studied what went wrong that time as well as previous relapses. He said one common denominator was that he had not attended a meeting in more than a month.

My biggest dislike of AA is the powerlessness belief. Yes, I know I am powerless over alcohol once it enters my body. However, alcohol is powerless over me if I actively keep it out of my system. I believe in fighting anyone and anything that attacks me.

If I were giving advice, I recommend attending AA and seeing if all or part of it is for you. I find other ways to remove alcohol's attack on me through exercise, prayer, AA meetings, this forum and motivational books and videos.

You can beat this. Just figure out what works for you. You must be honest though.

[Spiritfree]

I have been attending AA off and on for two years. It honestly got me started on the path of sobriety, but has not been the full answer. I tried the sponsor route and that was definitely not an option. I simply found it difficult to call every day when most days I was fine. Also, my sponsor wanted me to attend additional meetings where he was present and those days/times were just not good. I still attend on a frequent basis and find the wisdom and laughter great therapy.

At a recent meeting, a man spoke about his recent relapse after more than 3 years of sobriety. He said he studied what went wrong that time as well as previous relapses. He said one common denominator was that he had not attended a meeting in more than a month.

My biggest dislike of AA is the powerlessness belief. Yes, I know I am powerless over alcohol once it enters my body. However, alcohol is powerless over me if I actively keep it out of my system. I believe in fighting anyone and anything that attacks me.

If I were giving advice, I recommend attending AA and seeing if all or part of it is for you. I find other ways to remove alcohol's attack on me through exercise, prayer, AA meetings, this forum and motivational books and videos.

You can beat this. Just figure out what works for you. You must be honest though.

Great post! Thank you.
Most people in AA just want to help others, and in doing so, help themselves. I no longer attend, but I have to credit them for helping to save my life 16 years ago.

Ment -It truly is a great thing to have one on one medical advice and and have support from others who know what you are experiencing.

The higher power thing; regardless of any belief system, just being able to believe that there is something outside of yourself that can bring meaning to your life is a great start. Trust me, most people in AA do not have this so called HP thing down either. Most that are successful there just accept the fact there is something outside themselves that can help them live happier-more free lives.

The sponsor calling thing, having to communicate thing was never for me. I tried for awhile and then just decided I would be a participant the way that I felt best was for me.