Thinking about abstention and AA.

[Mentium]

Save yourself some time SF. I can't see and will never read anything you post here.

[Molly78]

Mentium, I'm glad a couple of other people have suggested trying to stop drinking or drinking less while titrating up. That's what did it for me the 2nd time I tried it. I did post about this before but there were some quite aggressive rebuttals of the idea of "needing" to stop drinking which wasn't exactly what I said.

[Stevo]

This is a little extreme and obviously written by someone who was quite pissed off with AA but full of great information none the less Ment.

Take a look...

A.A. Secrets

[Spiritfree]

Thank You Mentium

Save yourself some time SF. I can't see and will never read anything you post here.

Ment, please understand that I do not want, need, nor expect anything from you....feedback, etc. I post on this thread only because you are bringing up very important points relative to AUD and/or Baclofen. However, you are more than welcome at anytime to communicate with PM or eMail should you ever decide to do so (the truth can stink sometimes but it is better than the alternative -if you ever want to discuss the truth/reality).

Fellow MWO Baclofen supporters and enthusiasts:
Why is absolutely no one suggesting to Mentium to seek medical help? Hell, he is seeing visions of "things" in haunting detail, he has many physical negative side effects, he/she is suffering dramatic alcohol withdrawal symptoms and dramatic Baclofen side effects. What the heck is going on? Surely to goodness someone or some will step up and recommend that he/she do so (seek professional medical advice/help). He is not reading my posts but he will read your posts. Come on folks---you might suggest this and he may no longer like you but you will be doing the right thing.

[bleep]

Hi Mentium,

Sorry to hear that your titration is tough. Others have given good advice here, so I've nothing to add on that front, other than to reiterate that the struggle is worth it, it really is an amazing thing when it happens.

I've tried AA a couple of times, but like you run right into a brick wall on step 1, so for me its no good. A very good friend of mine has been sober for 5 or 6 years through AA, and seems extremely comfortable with life, although he too is atheist. I suppose it depends on the individual.

All the best.

[Spiritfree]

This is a little extreme and obviously written by someone who was quite pissed off with AA but full of great information none the less Ment.

Take a look...

A.A. Secrets

Stevo -the report/paper that you present is quite interesting and has quite a few truisms.

Here is what I think is important about AA if this is your first go around at getting sober:
(1) You get to meet and interact with people that are in your same boat -so to speak.
(2) Most true alcoholics are so called 'powerless' once alcohol enters their physical being.
(3) You can just go to meetings, talk with others, listen to others, and then leave -no commitments, no papers to sign.
(4) You can stop going to AA, you do not have to believe anything that they try to pass on (12 steps, etc) -instead you can just leave.

Today, most people who attend AA or forced to attend -unfortunately. The reality is when Dr. Bob and Bill W. got together, they were the first to actually share with others the fact two drunks got together, shared their stories with each other, and no longer felt isolated from the world.

I have not attended AA in years and do not want to now, but in the very beginning, it was sure damn nice listening to others that were going through with what I was going; alcohol withdrawal and creating a new, better life without alcohol.

[Stevo]

The major problem with AA is it is a cult.

Sure it is nice to be in a room with other struggling alcoholics at first,it is all very real in those early days.I have done a lot of AA!

They are the only option in Australia and the ridiculous ideas that they spout about AUD are the only thing that any struggling to get sober person hears.If you hear it enough you begin to start thinking like them.
I was taking bac and going to AA meetings for the first 8 months or so of my bac journey,I had been back in AA for around 2 years(sober) when I decided to do my drinking experiment.It was very hard to discard the indoctrination that I had received and now know to be a complete load of rubbish.
I found abstinence to be a nightmare of its own in the end especially when my best friend who had 8 years sober took his own life due to the conditioning he had received which made him feel that it was better to end his own life than pick up a drink and fall into an inevitable downward spiral into insanity and death.
It all looks good at first especially to someone who so desperately wants to be free of AL,but the consequences tend to be that the person who cannot work the program and inevitably drinks is called a buster and ostricized or the long term abstainer white knuckles it for varying lengths of time saying the serenity prayer 20 times a day.Most finding no peace in the program at all and as my friend did possibly taking their own lives.

That report states that AA has such a low success rate that it may actually be less that 0% which means that instead of doing any good it is actually harmful to enter into a cult like this.
It was said yesterday by another forum member that the way that AA has co-oped the medical world is pretty much a travesty(my words) and I believe this too.

I look forward to the day when baclofen or arbaclofen or any other variation is the first line defense of AUD and AA becomes a casualty of modern medicine.

I put it to my sponsor that AA was a cult and his response was that cults have leaders and therefore AA was not a cult.It sounded to me like a very well trained cult members response to a question that the hardcore members do not want to hear.

Just so people understand(especially the newcomer who has not read my earlier posts).I have done 2 stints in AA,the first in my mid 20's where I got 5 years sober and the second up until almost a year ago where I had 2 years sober.I was the guy that could share beautifully and say all the right things with a genuine smile on his face.The older sobers loved calling on me to share,I was good for their cause.People would come up to me after most meetings to tell me how inspired they were by my story.

As soon as I turned my back on them I was told by some members that it was being said that people had to stay away from me,one was pulled aside one day and told that he was seen speaking with me and that I would only cause his destruction.None of them knew I was taking bac but they did know that my ability to praise the organisation could also be switched to tear it down,although this was never my intention.
This is cult like behaviour if I have ever seen it.
To this day only a few people will speak to me when they see me and they generally have an air of when it all falls apart we will be waiting for you,most would not give me the time of day.

[lex]

Mentium- I'm eight months sober and fairly content. I went to some AA meetings around 25 years ago, but it didn't stick. So I went back to drinking for 25 years. This time, I don't go to AA meetings. But I do listen to AA speaker meetings, big book meetings, etc., and I find them helpful if only to keep my eye on the prize. I also practice vipassana meditation every day, and I find it exceedingly helpful. Just some thoughts. Good luck to you!

PS- I was very excited to try baclofen, but I was unwilling to keep putting up with the various-and sometimes bizarre-side effects (including closed-eye hallucinations of patterns and landscapes, sudden jolts of adrenalin (or some other panic-creating chemical), etc.. Then again, I find that I do not crave alcohol anyway (so long as there is none in my system), and also I see no point in drinking moderately (where's then fun in THAT?), so for me maybe I didn't feel much of a need to stick with the baclofen through thick and thin

[lex]

I should add, so far as I can see AA and serious meditation look to take you to the same place. Board either bus. It's all good.

[Lostinspace]

Mentium - I’m really glad to see you’re gonna hang on and stick with the bac for now. I have nothing to add to the good advice already given, other than to say I’m sorry your side effects are so awful and I really hope they start to ease off for you now that you’re going to stabilize your dose, or go down, for a while.

As far as my feelings on AA - like some others, I have mixed feelings. I was in and out of AA for, god, about 10 years. I do see value in the fellowship (at first! More on that later), as well as some of the slogans and life advice given there. But I have a few issues with the program, including some of the ones that have already been mentioned. First, the insistence on powerlessness, and the need to have our obsession lifted by a higher power (as well as the overtly Christian overtones, in general), has always rubbed me the wrong way. I also hate the focus on character defects. It’s probably the most unhelpful thing you could suggest for someone in early sobriety. Most people who wander into the rooms are broken. They’re already mired in regret, shame, and self-loathing. They need to be built up, not reminded of the shittier aspects of their nature.

I also have a problem with the degree to which they suggest you focus on your sobriety. Having to do all these things each day to “safeguard” your sobriety (go to meetings, call your sponsor, read the big book, pray or meditate, etc.), in my opinion, can work to worsen cravings and strengthen the mental obsession because you’re always, in some manner, shape, or form, focusing on drinking, rather than distracting from it and spending time trying to refocus your life. Add to that the idea that if you have so much as one drink, that you’re doomed to spiral into a full-blown relapse, and you’ve got all the makings for a disaster. It can become a self-fulfilling prophecy.

They also have little tolerance for people who have a harder time maintaining abstinence. I went away to detox with or (usually) without rehab several times in each of the last two towns I’ve lived in and I was never able to stay sober for more than a couple months. I noticed that each time I started drinking again and left, then dried out and came back, people were less and less friendly with me. Eventually even people who had at one point invited me to their homes for coffee, or a barbecue, wouldn’t even say hello to me. They acted like being a relapser was some kind of contagious illness. It makes you feel really alone when even the people who supposedly understand you can’t stand you.

Now all that said, I really do think that AA is a great program for *some* people. It’s just that for many of us, it’s either inadequate, or downright harmful.