Naltrexone

[YouKayBee]

Long-term effects of NAL , after about three years, Are unnoticeable. What is noticeable, is no more problems with excessive and life ruining alcohol abuse.

Some take the medication every day, and continue to drink every day, as that is what they want to do. Others use it as a path to sobriety.

Others find it can lead to an indifference to alcohol, and seeing that getting drunk serves no purpose

I suppose it depends how much medication you consume,

For me, taking small doses five or six times a month is plenty, and I see no issue with that.

You can debate the AUD definitions, until the cows come home. Definitely not a black or white definition.

Having a bit of experience dealing with alcohol abusers, the only certainty, is that controlling the problem requires two things.

Committing yourself to doing it.

Decreasing or stopping drinking

I used Nal for I think just over 2 years, I've taken probably 3-4 doses in the 2 1/2 years since then but no alcohol consumed. Long term, I feel like me. I have down days, I have up days. I've done a lot of psychological and personal development work on myself. I do have underlying anxiety, so I have a good idea that GABA whatever receptors are involved, but have managed to overcome my alcoholism with only Nal. I'm not interested in using a drug or med to help with anxiety, I'm working on that in other ways.

Hmm, yes there were many times when I wasn't capable of posting, many times when I woke paralytic, unable to make a phone call, and yes I did wet myself, I've also sat with vomting and diarhea on the loo (toilet/lav for US). I also manytimes lay waking after a blackout unable to keep anything down for 8 hours, sometimes unable to stand. I just had to wait until it passed, which was horrible. I've collapsed in the supermarket trying to buy alcohol, waving my money saying I need my drink. Not sure if that was the day that I was refused service in the off licence on the basis of the volume I'd bought that day (I used to buy 10 UK units of alcohol thinking I'd stick to that...........and return later that day, and return later that day).

Hmmm.

Hmmm.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

I have some other concerns or reservations about Nal. Since it is being hyped by TSM people for profit I wonder if the stats on its success are reliable. I also wonder if it works for anyone who is truly suffering from alcohol addiction which has reached a point where it can properly be defined as an "illness".

Another concern I have is that I have a horrible feeling that doctors are going to be faced with huge problems when they start trying to justify presxribing it when there are risks associated with continuing to drink and the drug itself may make people unable to properly weigh their situations and they end up drink driving or similar and blame the doctor. Why would a doctor bother if baclofen becomes avaiailable and there is no need to actively encourage a patient to drink. I see a real legal/ethical/ liability time bomb.

Oh, Otter, let it go. I know that you believe only in baclofen, but the truth is that there are several medications that allow people to get sober. Dismissing them is just silly. They're (for the most part) backed by good science.

Naltrexone is generic, just like baclofen, and TSM isn't "for profit". It's generally prescribed for people with the expectation that they are going to try to maintain abstinence (which is what most of the studies have described) and not TSM. Either way, it seems to work for some people. Just as baclofen only works for some people. Period.

Allow people to use whatever they can get access to, whatever their preference is, to get sober. Please stop telling people that their experiences aren't legitimate or that they aren't "Alcoholic Enough". That's one of Spiritfree's favorite refrains, too. You're not in good company with that.

All my best my friend.
:hug:

[YouKayBee]

Oh, Otter, let it go. I know that you believe only in baclofen, but the truth is that there are several medications that allow people to get sober. Dismissing them is just silly. They're (for the most part) backed by good science.

Naltrexone is generic, just like baclofen, and TSM isn't "for profit". It's generally prescribed for people with the expectation that they are going to try to maintain abstinence (which is what most of the studies have described) and not TSM. Either way, it seems to work for some people. Just as baclofen only works for some people. Period.

Allow people to use whatever they can get access to, whatever their preference is, to get sober. Please stop telling people that their experiences aren't legitimate or that they aren't "Alcoholic Enough". That's one of Spiritfree's favorite refrains, too. You're not in good company with that.

All my best my friend.
:hug:

Thanks for this Ne, I too spotted the 'profit' inaccuracy although Semington which is 'nal rejigged' is about profit making, however it comes with increased side effects and many prefer generic Naltrexone which is extremely cheap.

It's not about the best method, it's about what works for the individual and I'm coming across that in my studies into problems experienced in many other areas of life. The failure feeling when something doesn't work is incredibly destructive, and mostly unnecessary.

[Baclofenman]

My problem here and I think this is why I come across as so pro-baclofen is that my experience with alcoholism is in cases which make Father Jack look stone cold sober. He could sit in a chair and by comparison, behaved sensibly. My experience is with a much worse case so I just can't get to grips with people who say they have an alcohol "problem" but can come here, post, type, google, work, drive cars, see straight, use the toilet and not their own bed...

Evening Otter

This comment is really interesting me - I have considered it at length

Is the difference you are distinguishing between is that of an Alcoholic and an Alcohol abuser?

Regards


Bacman

[Otter]

I don't know. My experience of alcoholism is of someone who was worse than anything I have heard of on this forum and whose behaviour was about as extreme as it gets. Whatever you want to imagine, do so, and then think of something worse and you are getting in the ballpark of the type of alcoholism I have experienced and have had to live with. I come here and I find people who are able to post on this forum, which requires the ability to do something...anything, which a lot of alcoholics can't. Many are simply unable to function as human beings and should be hospitalized.

I don't know what the distinction is. I had assumed that coming here I would find people who were as bad as my wife but the only person who came close was Paul, a man in Toronto, whose sister posted here out of sheer desperation. Similarly, he didn't post on the forum but from the discussions I had with his sister, he was about as bad as my wife.

I suppose that is what makes me so angry sometimes, that baclofen worked in what was the worst case one could imagine. I've actually never in my life seen anything as extreme as my wife's condition. One of the reasons she has always objected to my posting here is that her condition was so bad it was massively embarrassing to her. She engaged in self-harm and all kinds of self-destructive behaviour, broke bones, ended up in hospitals and police stations, on the edge of cliffs, in water, wandering in the streets...the list goes on. It was a daily catalogue of horror stories. None of this was consistent with someone who could work, post on forums, use a computer, or even a phone. Of course, some of this may have been down to stroke damage because it seemed completely incurable. She tried everything. It was intensely frustrating. It was like living with someone with dementia in its worst stages but who was violently drunk all the time and only sobered up when her stomach was so pickled that she couldn't drink any more. I would get a few days of sobriety a month, and then it was back to the same thing, for about 10 years. I was trying to run my own business, go to court, attend client s under arrest in the police station, sit on court committees, raise an infant son, and I had this in my background. It became the talk of the town. But with it being so bad and with a drugs advisor clinic nearby and a major rehab down the road, to which my wife had been admitted, no one and nothing could help. I eventually packed up and moved to near her family to get help, just to keep down a job and survive. My life was a living hell and I could see no end to it. I went through another two jobs over 6 years and it all went the same way.

Then we say Ameisen on TV and I initially thought he was going to be nuts. When I listened more carefully I realized immediately that he was talking very sensibly and from a scientific angle which I had never heard of, so I bought his book.

In the face of an illness which I thought was incurable and for which I prayed that there would be a treatment and some release from the torture of my daily life, baclofen worked. And it continued to work in spite of resistance from my wife, wrong dosages, lack of support from doctors and health care workers and all the other abuse we have had thrown at us. I have had a phalanx of people involved in my family and professional life advising me to get out of this situation and leave. By refusing, I have been labelled as an enabler and subjected to court proceedings myself, despite being, at the time employed as a criminal prosecutor. Even my managers at work met with me to give me advise to leave my wife. That was all I got. No one cared or was in the slightest bit interested in what I was doing "for" my wife and in ways "they" or anyone could help us. Not one person. Our doctors were useless until the very end. The hospitals made things worse.

I have had to fight this on every front in my life an on every day against everyone in my life. No one helps alcoholics and no one helps their families once it gets that bad. They just try to damage you further. No treatment is considered effective. No professional in the business wants to hear about a cure or a treatment. They are all concerned for their careers and they stick to the party line, that alcoholism a train crash, that there is no cure except abstinence. So, I have fought and fought against everyone, not because I want to but because there was no cure, but I wanted to find one, and because, when I found one, no one wanted to know and "they" wanted me to forget about baclofen, forget about my wife, my son, my life, my career, and to just "cooperate" with them so they could report back to their managers that they had done their jobs the way they had been told to do their jobs. This problem extended into court cases and judge who took the same view and simply would not listen to me until it became so painful and so ugly that it ended up in the national newspapers.

What can I say.

[Otter]

I come here now and having been though all of that, having tortured my mind over this, I left the country and am now somewhere I am safe. My wife is well almost all of the time. I am working again, enjoying my life. Our son is an Honours student in a lovely private college here. We have no one involved in our lives. From every perspective we are just a normal, happy family.

That's why this forum has been important to me and my family. It's not because I want to help the world or other alcholics. That would be great, but I'm not actually an egomaniac... seriously. If anything, I have a very realistic view of the mess I have made for myself in my career by taking this route and sticking with my wife.

After a year here SF got in touch with me and asked me to speak to him via Skype. My wife was reluctant because we hear so many stories about chat forum psychopaths but eventually we agreed to speak to him and he was hugely supportive of baclofen and us and we developed a relationship with him over a period of months. It was at first quite enjoyable because we seemed to be on the same wavelengths but then I noticed he was saying slightly different things about "other drugs" and his offers to involve me in a Eurppean project seemed a bit far fetched given my location. My wife started to warn me and said SF was dangerous. I then noticed he was spreading a different message on this forum and steering me towards involving myself in his "causes" which were about "other drugs". He also seemed to be insinuating himself into the good books of a lot of people on this forum who I respected, like Cass, who seemed to think he was such a great guy. Also his message, which is like a lot of what goes on here is that baclofen is nothing special, everything that works is ok.

That message is fine in a way but I specifically asked SF about his understanding of Ameisen's theory and quickly realized he had not read the book, had no background which would allow him to judge what Ameisen was doing and that he was just someone who, in his own words, wanted to do what "I" was doing on the forum. He wanted to be someone who had a cause and was well liked and respected for helping people get well, but he certainly did not think baclofen was an answer, in fact, quite the contrary, he became very hostile to it, very dismissive of it and only wanted to pursue other treatments.

I am hoping this clarifies my position in my posting here. I had thought, before coming back to this forum that the "any drug will do" crowd had taken over this forum and that all the good things which so many had achieved on baclofen was going to be lost. So, I came back and have tried to do something about it.

SF, for me, is no different from any other person I have met over the years who has caused me and my family grief by giving false and useless information about treatments for alcoholism. He is no different from all the people who made getting treatment on baclofen so difficult because they simply wrote it off as crank, fringe, internet medicine. No matter what I said to these people they would not accept that baclofen was a proper treatment, or even look into it. In fact, they abused me because I dared say that it was working for my wife. SF does the same here. He tries to stifle discussion of this drug, tries to divert people using it away to drugs which don't/won't work. He has no qualifications for advising people and no experience of these drugs. He has no compassion or concern for anyone but himself. He has no insight into his own behaviour and no desire to listen to anyone. Whether he is doing this for some financial gain or because he is, as is becoming more and more clear, just delusional or sociopathic I don't know but he has seriously hurt a lot of people here by damaging this forum

Getting back to the question about differentiating between different types of alcoholics, I feel one needs to read Ameisen's book very carefully and understand what he is saying about this illness as a bona fide illness. I think that because he frames this illness as something other than "alcoholism", one cannot use that word anymore in any sensible way to talk about the condition. Why do some people drink heavily all their lives but do not get into any trouble or feel any need to cut back? Why do some people drink for fun and some for anxiety? Not all people who call themselves "alcohollics" are. They may feel they are addicted but they don't suffer to the point that they have an illness and it is beyond their control. Some people hate alcohol, like my wife, but drink it out of sheer necessity because they can't live without it. Since we have used the term "alcoholic" until now without thinking of it as a physiological condition as described by Ameisen, we can't distinguish between people who drink out of illness and those who drink for other reasons. We don't know why some people respond to baclofen and others don't because the research hasn't been done. Also, we are using an old drug which is only now being refined into Arbaclofen and turned into a time released pill. We still lack medical backup for those wanting to take it. Even those people who have a doctor who is willing to prescribe will find the doctor has no knowledge beyond writing up a prescription and there is no one in the rehab or medical profession at any level, anywhere, who has expertise in counselling and supporting people who are on baclofen and recovering from it. The best we have is this forum and the "Prescribing Guidelines". So, SF comes along and wants to abuse people who take baclofen and weaken this forum as a support for them, which he has succeeded in doing. He has done harm to this forum and people on it and he has given nothing back.

Sorry about the rant but I had to get it off my chest.

[Baclofenman]

What can I say.

Jeez Otter

I am truly sorry for the shit you and Mrs Otter have had to go through with her additction

What can i say - Well, I understand why you have reservations about some of the posters on the forum with regard to their alcoholism - It is the status and extent of their "alcoholism" that is of issue to you?

This said, because you have seen the worse end of the Alcohoholics scale, it does not mean there are others further short of your situation who are Alcoholics and their situation and requirements are just as needy even though the results of their alcoholism are not as profound - Thats just my opinion Otter, not as an expert but as an alcoholic

I lurked on the forum before registering and read stuff about Baclofen by authors such as your goodself TK and Ne

I am currently surviving AF @ day 66, due to Baclofen - I feel Baclofen has nulled the anxieties that caused me to use AL as a "way out" - I rate Baclofen as a potential lifechanger to me Otter - I cannot express my gratitude to the aforementioned for bringing this to my attention and for that I will be eternally grateful, as will my wife and my children - I am therefore firmly in your camp on this one

Regarding other drugs - I love Baclofen for what it is doing for me - However I would not for one minute suggest it works for everyone and nothing else is as good or effective (Not that I am implying you are) - Clearly it does not work for everyone - I appreciate what OA says and the stimulation the receptor gaba b and other suggested drugs do not work in this way - I do not think they should be thrown aside as not an option

I will save SF for another time

Anyway, I have had a long day and I am starting to waffle

Your story is a powerful one Otter and I for one thank you for sharing it

Best Regards


Bacman

[Spiritfree]

Bacman -nicely done. Well said in a way that will not offend Otter yet allow you to express your opinion that BACLOFEN MAY NOT BE the cure for some alcoholics. TK and NE will both appreciate your kind words regarding their help to you with Baclofen. Thank you for supporting this site and the members herein while you continue your journey to freedom from alcoholism.

Edit: Bacman, I am sorry that at 66 days alcohol free you are still just "surviving" and not thriving. Baclofen changed everything for me after about the 60 day mark, but only in looking back can I see what Baclofen actually did. Hang in there Bacman -it truly does get better.

Bacman, I am very happy that you no longer experience a craving for a beer when you get home from work. This should be a sign to all of just how magical Baclofen is.

[Baclofenman]

Bacman -nicely done. Well said in a way that will not offend Otter yet allow you to express your opinion that BACLOFEN MAY NOT BE the cure for some alcoholics. TK and NE will both appreciate your kind words regarding their help to you with Baclofen. Thank you for supporting this site and the members herein while you continue your journey to freedom from alcoholism.

Edit: Bacman, I am sorry that at 66 days alcohol free you are still just "surviving" and not thriving. Baclofen changed everything for me after about the 60 day mark, but only in looking back can I see what Baclofen actually did. Hang in there Bacman -it truly does get better.

Bacman, I am very happy that you no longer experience a craving for a beer when you get home from work. This should be a sign to all of just how magical Baclofen is.

Spirit

You clearly have not grasped the simple fact about me - I am not here to gain accolades, I am here for help - If I find something that interests me, then I will react to it - If I find someone behaving like a cock, I will react to it

Unlike you Spirit, I treat other posters (most of them) with the respect they deserved because they have earned it - Otter is no exception - Just because I dont agree with everything he says does not mean I should not be respectful in my reply to him - Its called respect, Spirit - You should try it some time

Your sarcasm shines through Spirit and yet again you dont actually offer anything to a thread except your incepid bile

And yes Spirit, I am not "thriving" - Whatever that is supposed to mean - I am surviving to the next time I think, maybe I fancy a drink - But i am not drinking - Maybe there will be a time when I dont fancy a drink for, say a month - But, if that day comes I will reassess the terminology

Edit: Bacman, I am sorry that at 66 days alcohol free you are still just "surviving" and not thriving. Baclofen changed everything for me after about the 60 day mark, but only in looking back can I see what Baclofen actually did. Hang in there Bacman -it truly does get better.

Spirit - If you think I am going to take any jouney details from a sufferer of pseudologia fantastica (save you looking it up - means pathalogical liar) - You are even more deranged than was previously discovered

Have a good evening - Dont get too pissed


Bacman

[Spiritfree]

Spirit

You clearly have not grasped the simple fact about me - I am not here to gain accolades, I am here for help - If I find something that interests me, then I will react to it - If I find someone behaving like a cock, I will react to it
(OK -lol)

Unlike you Spirit, I treat other posters (most of them) with the respect they deserved because they have earned it - Otter is no exception - Just because I dont agree with everything he says does not mean I should not be respectful in my reply to him - Its called respect, Spirit - You should try it some time
Its called what -respect? I will have to look this term up -mb.

Your sarcasm shines through Spirit and yet again you dont actually offer anything to a thread except your incepid bile
(you lost me on this one...lol)

And yes Spirit, I am not "thriving" - Whatever that is supposed to mean - I am surviving to the next time I think, maybe I fancy a drink - But i am not drinking - Maybe there will be a time when I dont fancy a drink for, say a month - But, if that day comes I will reassess the terminology
Spirit - If you think I am going to take any jouney details from a sufferer of pseudologia fantastica (save you looking it up - means pathalogical liar) - You are even more deranged than was previously discovered
Have a good evening - Dont get too pissed
Bacman

LOL Bacman -you crack me up. Sounds as though you are dispensing more help than you are receiving and sounds as though you are slightly agitated.

You say that "(You) are not thriving right now, whatever that is supposed to mean". If you do not know what that means then why did you respond to the question or comment? Perhaps, just a guess here on my part, but I am thinking that you are still drinking and still suffering -but remember Bacman, that is just a guess and just an opinion -not fact.

Yes Bacman, I am the the things that you said above -or at least I think that I am. I do not fancy my problems nor do I intentionally mean to be this way -it is a brain malfunction thing -I think.

Regards,
--SF--

(YHBT -again)

[Otter]

Bacman -nicely done. Well said in a way that will not offend Otter yet allow you to express your opinion that BACLOFEN MAY NOT BE the cure for some alcoholics. TK and NE will both appreciate your kind words regarding their help to you with Baclofen. Thank you for supporting this site and the members herein while you continue your journey to freedom from alcoholism.

Edit: Bacman, I am sorry that at 66 days alcohol free you are still just "surviving" and not thriving. Baclofen changed everything for me after about the 60 day mark, but only in looking back can I see what Baclofen actually did. Hang in there Bacman -it truly does get better.

Bacman, I am very happy that you no longer experience a craving for a beer when you get home from work. This should be a sign to all of just how magical Baclofen is.

Yes, SF, Baclofen may NOT be a cure for what you and others describe as "alcoholism" in some people because they are not drinking because of an "illness" of the nature described by Ameisen. If every person who drank had this illness, then everyone would end up in the same condition as Ameisen. So, for people who aren't ill, there is no "cure" because there is nothing to cure. They can continue to drink or substitute some other drug of choice, like pot or Nal. So, no illness, no cure. Nal is not a "cure". It's a prophylactic. Still, if people want to take it and reduce their drinking, that's fine with me. I, unlike you, am not here to direct people in the wrong direction.

[sunshinedaisies]

Otter - I truly am so sorry for all that you went through with your wife - you are to be commended for standing by her. I am really happy for you that Bac was such a miracle. I think though that for YOU it was a miracle - for me, naltrexone was a miracle. The AL thing as to whether one is really ill or not so ill - surely that is like being a little bit pregnant! You either have a problem or you don't. From your perspective, I am thinking I was not a full blown alcoholic - but surely if I consider that I had a problem with AL, then my problem was every bit as important as yours - everything is relative. I needed to sort MY problem just as you needed to sort yours - I respect your decision to use the Bac and hope that you respect my decision to use the Nal - it has totally changed my life, as has the Bac changed yours. I just feel that you are not being fair to anyone in saying that yours is the only way - this forum was originally intended for Topirimate and that was used by Roberta Jewel - she did not use bac but the Topa worked for her. By your standards, she wasn't a full blown alcoholic either. Yes I was a functioning alcoholic - and now, should I choose to, I can take a Nal and have a drink. I do not want to drink - I have only been 'cured' (for want of a better expression) since 5th December - a short time in the grand scheme of things but I just do not want to drink. It really is amazing but if something works for you and it is not what I used, then that is wonderful!! I am SO pleased for you but please do not knock what others use. Be happy for us. Like I am happy for you.

Sun

[Otter]

Hi Sunshine,

Nice to hear from you.

I think I am being misunderstood and that misunderstanding is fuelled by the doofus, SF.

I have no problem at all with anyone getting whatever help they want with their "alcoholism", or whatever one wants to call it. What I am unhappy about is SF spreading misinformation and misunderstanding about new medications here. He does not understand what baclofen is, how it works or why it is different from other medications. I certainly do not want to diminish the seriousness of any level of substance abuse, no matter what it's cause.

What I am saying is this:

1. Any way out of the horror of substance/alcohol dependence is fine. However, none of them has worked in any meaningful way either for my family or for the general public.

2. Ameisen discovered the involvement of a different part of the brain in substance abuse. No one had ever addressed how Gaba-b dysphoria contributed toward anxiety craving. His theory is new and unique. It allows for the use of a drug which actually eliminates this craving/addiction, rather than suppressing it.

3. Naltrexone/Nalmafene only reduces craving. It should not be compared with the mechanism of baclofen. To do so is to misinform people and potentially send them down the wrong route. For some people, however, and it is entirely a matter of individual choice, reduction of drinking is all they want to do. It's a free world, good luck to them. I have no problem with that at all.

4. This is supposed to be a supportive community but from day one of arriving here six years ago, baclofen has been attacked by various and sundry people here as have I and others who have come here only to get support. I can mention people like Tiptronic and Mario who relentlessly hammered away at me because I was desperate to find help with baclofen and I understood what Ameisen was saying and they didn't take the time to read his book or familiarize themselves with the theory of it. Nor could they accept that it actually worked. My problem with this is that this is the attitude of the general public and medical profession at large and this is the kind of ignorance that does, in fact, harm people in a very real and very painful way. Rather than giving support, people judge baclofen and baclofen users without any regard to the science or success of it. Not only is this damaging to the general public who are deprived of information about it, but it damages those taking the drug because it undermines them psychologically. I know that from bitter experience with hospitals who have provided support for our use of baclofen and then sent letters out from senior managers stopping us from getting help and virtually reprimanding us and the junior staff who supported us.

5. SF hasn't come here to help anyone. He made it clear from the outset that he wanted to develop a reputation on the web as being the big man in spreading the word about alcohol treatments. He showed his envy of me in a Skype chat, told me as much and said he wanted to do what (he thought) I was doing. Unfortunately, he seems to think I did what I did here to gain some kind of internet persona for personal gratification. I do what I do because this medical treatment is necessary and important to me and my family. He, on the other hand, is not advocating for better treatment of the users or a drug, more access to medical care for users of a particular drug. He is simply grandstanding to show off what he thinks will make him "famous" as a proponent of drug treatment of alcoholism. If, however, all these other drugs are not anywhere near as effective as baclofen, then he is wasting his time.

6. He hasn't only promoted drug treatment of alcoholism. He has, in a very negative and prejudiced way, decided to attack users of baclofen, target them and tried to bring down this forum because it has developed into a baclofen oriented forum. He thinks that this is due to people somehow exaggerating the benefits of the drug. He can't accept that it is a new or innovative or important development in alcoholism treatment. He has denigrated the drug, Ameisen, the science of baclofen, the molecule itself, me, anyone associated with baclofen, simply because he wants to be the prime spokesman on this site and be "famous". That is all he is about.

7. Because he comes here to damage people and mislead, he has undermined the supportive nature of the forum. Who would go to an AA meeting, if they disagreed with 12-Step and constantly irritate people who found it useful. He can't accept that this forum has become baclofen dominated BECAUSE Ameisen is right and the drug works. He equates SE's that HE might not like to the drug being ineffective. He does everything he can to diminish this treatment.

I do accept that people, such as yourself are getting relief from Naltrexone/Nalmafene. The only point I make in respect of that is that the term "alcoholism" is no longer relevant. What we need to look at is why some people respond to some drugs like baclofen and others don't. Do some people have the Ameisen craving/anxiety disorder and others not? Do those who don't have it still get to a point with alcohol that they have a "problem" with drink (which may indeed be severe) but they don't respond to baclofen because they don't have an anxiety disorder? I feel that the answer is that almost all people who have serious, chronic, disabling alcohol disorder have an anxiety disorder. Some of these people can nip this in the bud if they get baclofen early on. However, the side effects may be too much because the damage of alcoholism hasn't been great. For those with long term alcohol damage and severe anxiety, the side effects are not as bad in comparison to the illness. For those who drink because it is enjoyable for them, but they can't stop, maybe reducing, stopping, tapering off, using Nal, smoking pot may benefit them and if it does, that's great.

Where there is a problem in the analysis used by some people here, particularly SF, is that they equate reduction of drinking with a "cure". If that is the case then locking someone in a room without alcohol would be a "cure". White-knuckling it would be a cure as would smoking pot. None of these are cures, though, anymore than methadone is a cure for opiate addiction. They don't address the "cause" of the problem. They only give a person respite or relief from the use of alcohol so the brain can recover. If you take this to an extreme, then we are back to the idea that the cure for alcoholism is "stopping drinking" and we are back to square one, the original position we were in before Ameisen came along, the desperately awful and nihilistic position that alcoholics have always been in, that it is their fault, that they should just stop and stopping will cure them. That's the problem. For those who can't stop, this ideology is of no use and is damaging because it ignores the discovery Ameisen made, that for those who really, truly CANNOT stop, there is a cure which does address the "cause" of THEIR illness and doesn't just substitute another drug which gives them a similar "buzz" but which is not so physically damaging as alcohol.

I may come across as a bit too harsh on SF, but I've had years of this sort of muddled, arrogant thinking from every corner and just as others have screwed up my career or my family or my wife's treatment, SF has screwed up the supportive aspect of this forum. So, he has made himself, through his own inability or unwillingness to take on board any of the comments or criticisms about his behavior, into an object of ridicule and anger from a huge number of people here including myself

[sunshinedaisies]

WHO cares what IS or isn't alcoholism? This is NOT a competition - and if it was, then YES - you WON !!!

Nal did not 'reduce my cravings'. Nal STOPPED me drinking - yes I can if I want - but I do not want to! Full Stop! Not just that my cravings are gone - everything to do with AL is gone!

'However, none of them has worked in any meaningful way either for my family or for the general public.' HOW do you know that? How many of the general public do you know? Comparatively I mean, to be able to say that it does not work for the general public? I have had friends that tried Bac - it didn't work! But you do not hear me saying that it doesn't work - I respect that it worked for your wife and does work for many folk - the same as Nal does for folk too! The people that I know that took Bac could not tolerate the SE's. If it works for you, then great - but please do NOT put down everything else as being unimportant.

Sun

[Mentium]

I do think there are degrees of - shall we say -'entanglement' with alcohol (rather than 'alcoholism'). I have always functioned well and though I will drink too much when I am drinking, the volume I consume is not high compared to the average AA attendee for example. I have attended AA off and on for several years and found it helpful - though no longer. Several members over the years commented to me that if they could get away with drinking what I do they would not bother quitting.

If my experience is at one end of a spectrum perhaps Ameisen's and your good wife's experience is at the other Otter. I never crashed cars, lost a home or family, did 'geographicals' or any of the dramatic stuff we all know about, but my life has been hell at times, mostly due to the anguish caused by daily drinking without a break.

I didn't make it with baclofen. It didn't feel right for me somehow - and I won't go into all the reasons again now - but perhaps it was because I am not in the category Otter places Amerisen and his wife. Perhaps I have a little more choice..though it doesn't feel like it I have to say.

All I know is I don't feel compelled to drink relentlessly until I can't any more. Perhaps baclofen works best for people who do - and have little choice but to do so.