Naltrexone

[Otter]

I think there is a long way to go before we get to grips with categorizing in a scientific and helpful way, why and how some drugs work for some people and not for others. I stopped drinking daily because it just made me feel lousy and it no longer game me pleasure so I took to nursing a pint of ale at the pub instead of having two. For me, that worked, but I never had a problem arising from my use of alcohol. I certainly had an anxiety problem though and baclofen helped with that but I only discovered that after stopping drinking totally for several years. I also found the side effects made me like a zombie but my wife, who was able to tolerate very high doses of baclofen with no side effects started to insist that I take high doses daily for my stress, most of which she caused. lol.

Who knows. What I am trying to get across is that a "cure" addresses the cause of an illness. If you have a deficiency of something or a deficit or damage to a bodily part, you figure out what the problem is and then find something which mends it. It may be that damage caused by drinking alcohol is the only problem if you have taken it consistently for many years so you do just need to stop, however difficult that is. But, because you don't have an anxiety disorder you don't exhibit all the mentally ill things that Ameisen and my wife did because they have a problem in the anxiety/motor area of their limbic region which is associated with a number of behavioural issues, such as violent behaviour.

Taking Nal might help you.

What doesn't help is misinformation from some quarters here which just adds to the confusion and doesn't actually help anyone figure out what to do. What this place is best at is giving support and helping other see what helps by hearing what other people are doing and what their condition is like. It doesn't help for someone to come here and attack a group of baclofen users because they want to downplay the success of this drug so they can big themselves up as a mouthpiece for "new drugs". None of that information is useful because there is nothing in it which shows anyone whether a particular drug works for them. In general, all you get is a vague idea that Nal, for instance, reduces craving to "some" extent and Ibogaine stops opiate craving for a time, for some... What good is that?

[Otter]

I do think there are degrees of - shall we say -'entanglement' with alcohol (rather than 'alcoholism'). I have always functioned well and though I will drink too much when I am drinking, the volume I consume is not high compared to the average AA attendee for example. I have attended AA off and on for several years and found it helpful - though no longer. Several members over the years commented to me that if they could get away with drinking what I do they would not bother quitting.

If my experience is at one end of a spectrum perhaps Ameisen's and your good wife's experience is at the other Otter. I never crashed cars, lost a home or family, did 'geographicals' or any of the dramatic stuff we all know about, but my life has been hell at times, mostly due to the anguish caused by daily drinking without a break.

I didn't make it with baclofen. It didn't feel right for me somehow - and I won't go into all the reasons again now - but perhaps it was because I am not in the category Otter places Amerisen and his wife. Perhaps I have a little more choice..though it doesn't feel like it I have to say.

All I know is I don't feel compelled to drink relentlessly until I can't any more. Perhaps baclofen works best for people who do - and have little choice but to do so.

Part of the problem here is that some very useful members like Lo0p aren't here anymore. I know a few people who post very infrequently now who sound like you and have very individualized approaches to taking baclofen. It may be that a different dosage regime would help you. Or, it may be that, like Youkaybee, it is never going to work for you no matter how hard or how long you try. She appears to have had good results from Nal and I would certainly never criticize her for taking the decision she did to go down that route.

[sunshinedaisies]

I think there is a long way to go before we get to grips with categorizing in a scientific and helpful way, why and how some drugs work for some people and not for others. I stopped drinking daily because it just made me feel lousy and it no longer game me pleasure so I took to nursing a pint of ale at the pub instead of having two. For me, that worked, but I never had a problem arising from my use of alcohol. I certainly had an anxiety problem though and baclofen helped with that but I only discovered that after stopping drinking totally for several years. I also found the side effects made me like a zombie but my wife, who was able to tolerate very high doses of baclofen with no side effects started to insist that I take high doses daily for my stress, most of which she caused. lol.

Who knows. What I am trying to get across is that a "cure" addresses the cause of an illness. If you have a deficiency of something or a deficit or damage to a bodily part, you figure out what the problem is and then find something which mends it. It may be that damage caused by drinking alcohol is the only problem if you have taken it consistently for many years so you do just need to stop, however difficult that is. But, because you don't have an anxiety disorder you don't exhibit all the mentally ill things that Ameisen and my wife did because they have a problem in the anxiety/motor area of their limbic region which is associated with a number of behavioural issues, such as violent behaviour.

Taking Nal might help you.

What doesn't help is misinformation from some quarters here which just adds to the confusion and doesn't actually help anyone figure out what to do. What this place is best at is giving support and helping other see what helps by hearing what other people are doing and what their condition is like. It doesn't help for someone to come here and attack a group of baclofen users because they want to downplay the success of this drug so they can big themselves up as a mouthpiece for "new drugs". None of that information is useful because there is nothing in it which shows anyone whether a particular drug works for them. In general, all you get is a vague idea that Nal, for instance, reduces craving to "some" extent and Ibogaine stops opiate craving for a time, for some... What good is that?

I am beating a dead horse - I truly am happy that the Bac worked for your wife Otter

[Otter]

I am beating a dead horse - I truly am happy that the Bac worked for your wife Otter

And I am truly happy that Nal worked for you. I have never, ever, ever said that my way is the only way. All I say is that Ameisen describes how baclofen works on Gaba-b deficits. Lots of people without this deficit drink, and stop drinking using many methods or don't stop and enjoy drinking into old age. Few people, I would suggest, with a serious Gaba-b problem can stop drinking without baclofen. That's my take on it. Sorry if that gets up your nose. It's not intended to. I started out as a disciple of Joan Larson and the vitamin therapy she advocates in Seven Weeks to Sobriety. Trouble is it required something like 72 pills a day and a prescription tranquilizer, and abstinence to start, and...it didn't actually work very well outside a clinic. We persevered with it for more than a year and got some relief and still take vitamins... I'd recommend the book to anyone, but I also understand the scientific explanation Ameisen sets out in his book and I think that from a public health perspective, it needs to be looked at more thoroughly.

[Spellers]

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[Otter]

http://www.thesinclairmethod.net/community/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=4607&p=61258&sid=70eb859832ce56d739e5c0193ac445e3#p61258

This is a thread about what is happening with TSM in the UK. UKB used Dr. Chick years back but now the NHS are prescribing it as Nalmafene. Doesn't look too promising at the moment.

[sunshinedaisies]

Thanks Sunshine for posting your experience of Nal. It only recently came on my radar and sounds very interesting. Can you order via the online pharmacies too?

Yes you can - I think River Pharmacy is the one most people use. if you have any questions, feel free to PM me ......I wish you all the best,

Sun

[YouKayBee]

http://www.thesinclairmethod.net/com...ac445e3#p61258

This is a thread about what is happening with TSM in the UK. UKB used Dr. Chick years back but now the NHS are prescribing it as Nalmafene. Doesn't look too promising at the moment.

Once I'd received a few prescriptions with Dr Chick, my own GP prescribed. I did have to go see the local alcohol team who then wrote a letter of support - and then my GP was happy to carry on. I was offered Nalmafene but was happy with Naltrexone. Nalmafene comes with worse side effects, and is being prescribed with little knowledge of how it works.

Some are doing well on it.

[Baclofenman]

This is a thread about what is happening with TSM in the UK. UKB used Dr. Chick years back but now the NHS are prescribing it as Nalmafene. Doesn't look too promising at the moment.

Once I'd received a few prescriptions with Dr Chick, my own GP prescribed. I did have to go see the local alcohol team who then wrote a letter of support - and then my GP was happy to carry on. I was offered Nalmafene but was happy with Naltrexone. Nalmafene comes with worse side effects, and is being prescribed with little knowledge of how it works.

Some are doing well on it.

Indeed Otter

It would be interesting YKB if unlike yourself any UK/EU patients were being prescribed Nalmafene on script by a UK doctor without having to undergo a "programme" - I would suggest the "programme" would put a lot of people off getting the help they require?

Regards


Bacman

[Ne/Neva Eva]

It is my limited understanding that anyone who is receiving treatment for drugs/alcohol in the UK has to go through some sort of therapy or blah, blah. UNLESS, they're simply getting the script from their doctor. Then it skips the whole drug/alcohol thing. (I forget what it's called.) I have never heard of Dr. Chick insisting on treatment of any kind, and have heard many times that he will speak with someone's GP about prescribing baclofen or naltrexone.

(Otter, why are you posting about baclofen on a thread about naltrexone? You know who else does stuff like that? Carl. Let's not do what he does. Just sayin'.)

[Mentium]

It seems to vary - there is no standard procedure as far as I can tell. I have only once discussed drinking with my GP and he referred me to a alcohol and drugs team, which was a waste of time. Their remit was damage reduction/helping people with methadone management an occasional diazepam for alcohol withdrawal it seemed to me. I have heard of other GPs getting involved with treatment at a detailed level. Dr Chick, when I saw him, recommended face to face support - I got the impression he favoured AA, but he didn't make it a condition.

There appears to be no standardization which is perhaps a good thing as one has the option of trying to find the right doctor if one needs to.

[Spellers]

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[Ne/Neva Eva]

Hayzeus. Before I made my last post I hadn't bothered to wade through the last couple of pages...

I sent an email off, but I realize I want to state some stuff publicly.

I don't understand, after all you've been through Otter, on this forum and in your own life, why you would come onto a thread about a medication which you clearly know very little about and continue to frame the discussion around baclofen. Do you know who else does that? Your friend, SF.

Otter, half of the stuff you've written could really be perceived as harmful rather than helpful. Among other things, you imply that one needs to be a gutter-drunk in order to benefit from baclofen. You imply that if one doesn't need baclofen to get well, then one isn't really alcoholic. I can assure you that I was alcoholic enough to qualify for the definition and that I was not a gutter-drunk who drank quarts of whatever and that baclofen helped me.

Look, I mostly agree with you about Ameisen's discovery and baclofen as an undeniably unique medication to treat alcoholism. But you are missing the point, my friend!

Your rants about baclofen vs. naltrexone, on a thread about naltrexone, are EXACTLY what people have been doing on this forum for years regarding baclofen. It's why we need our own space, one that welcomes all of the medical approaches to treatment.

And ffs, Otter, naltrexone, in many forms and taken in a couple of different ways, has proved effective in MORE STUDIES than baclofen has. We both know the reasons for this. Those are beside the point for the moment. But the point you are likely going to miss is that NALTREXONE IS TRULY EFFECTIVE FOR SOME ALCOHOLICS along the ENTIRE SPECTRUM of the disease. Sheesh.

Otter, don't do what Spiritf*cker does. Let this one go. And let people find a way to end their own addictions.

Thanks, all you naltrexone people, for not losing your minds and being really angry.

Or am I, possibly, overreacting? It's why the moderators on the new forum aren't me.

[guapo]

Otter Posted :

"2. Ameisen discovered the involvement of a different part of the brain in substance abuse. No one had ever addressed how Gaba-b dysphoria contributed toward anxiety craving. His theory is new and unique. It allows for the use of a drug which actually eliminates this craving/addiction, rather than suppressing it.

3. Naltrexone/Nalmafene only reduces craving. It should not be compared with the mechanism of baclofen. To do so is to misinform people and potentially send them down the wrong route. For some people, however, and it is entirely a matter of individual choice, reduction of drinking is all they want to do. It's a free world, good luck to them. I have no problem with that at all."




Naltrexone does not reduce cravings. It fails miserably when used that way. The approach with TSM is extinction, whereupon one drinks, and finds that the intake does not result in a pleasant buzz.

Over time, and with reduced drinking, alcohol loses its luster. The drinking doesn't lead to a reward.

You knew drinking was bad , that the sweet spot where everything felt good was fleeting, hard to stay in. Every time you drank , you felt that you'd be able to pull that off, not drink to the point of stupidity, but that never happens, does it ?

TSM puts the brakes on the drinking, especially if you take things slow, and be mindful of what you're doing.

Mindset most definitely changes as the drinking decreases, and you regain clarity.

There's no motivation to want to drink anymore.

Young kids don't drink, and they have fun. Do you think they'd have more fun stumbling around and acting stupid with alcohol?.

When you think back up on your drinking career, was much of it fun? Was it worth it? Was it a super great idea ?

I was certain it would be impossible to have a life without constant alcohol, that I'd miss it like crazy. I would "crave" it

NOT.

Since there's no obsessing or worry about alcohol, life can be lived free of that nightmare.

Perhaps best to view naltrexone as a tool to wean away from excess alcohol use, and let you regain your senses.

[Molly78]

That's right, Ne. In the UK GPs usually require secondary care services to assess the patient, then there is a Joint Prescribing Protocol between primary & secondary care.

Unfortunately, the idea of using nalmefene to treat heavy drinkers who might not appear to be full blown alcoholics has not been well received by GPs generally. They don't see the need. Such a pity, as it's these "functioning alcoholics" who are most receptive to treatment, & who would do so well on baclofen. Once you're lying in the gutter drinking cider all day, you're pretty much beyond help - yet these are the people who GPs will happily refer to alcohol services.

Something needs to change.