Question about two drugs. Baclofen and Subutex

[story97]

I was addicted to pain pills for 13 years. I got off for some bizarre reason i was just tired of using illegal ways of getting them (online). So i found a clinic and havent done them in 6 years now.

The caveat is, I'm on Subutex, and am afraid to quit.

the two questions I have both include baclofen. I am prescribed 20mg 3 times per day. I have found my best balance is actually taking 2 of them once a day. it's enough to relieve my sciatic issues but not affec t sleep. For some BIZARRE reason when i take these I get dog tired but will refuse to go to bed. it makes no sense. i end up falling asleep several times at my desk working. no way to explain.

Anyway, my question is this. i don't THINK i took my two for the day. if I did, it was a couple hours ago. I don't feel the effects so i really don't think i did, but my question is, if I take 2 and have already taken 2 a couple hours ago, is that a dangerous dose?

Second, I have read that baclofen can be used to get people off drugs. Currently I am prescribed 16mg of subutex per day, but only take about 4mg. Is it possible to use Baclofen to stop the subutex, and if so, is there a way to find out how? I see a lot of parallel info on the two, but nothing about using one to get off the other.

Any ideas on these two questions?

tldr; is 40 mg of baclofen in a 2 hour span lethal or close to it? and can i use the baclofen to get off the subutex?

[Baclofenman]

Re: Question about two drugs. Baclofen and Subutex

For some BIZARRE reason when i take these I get dog tired but will refuse to go to bed. it makes no sense. i end up falling asleep several times at my desk working. no way to explain.

Somnolence is a well recognised SE of Baclofen

Anyway, my question is this. i don't THINK i took my two for the day. if I did, it was a couple hours ago. I don't feel the effects so i really don't think i did, but my question is, if I take 2 and have already taken 2 a couple hours ago, is that a dangerous dose?

On your low Baclofen doseage, I would expect to miss the medication would be preferable. If you start to feel like you are in withdrawal you can always take one. Dont forget, I am a punter on a web forum. Whilst I have experience of Baclofen, I am not a doctor.

Second, I have read that baclofen can be used to get people off drugs. Currently I am prescribed 16mg of subutex per day, but only take about 4mg. Is it possible to use Baclofen to stop the subutex, and if so, is there a way to find out how? I see a lot of parallel info on the two, but nothing about using one to get off the other.

I do not know the answer to this question, however you might find the following of interest;

High Dose Baclofen for weaning off Suboxone.

Regards


Bacman

EDIT: Oh, Welcome....

[tonyniceday]

Bacolofen

Hi

I, too, am on Baclofen but I take it in what my Psychiatrist describes as an "unconventional" way - but she is happy for me to do so if it works!

The history of this drug is that it was developed to treat the spasms experienced by those suffering from Multiple Sclerocis and epilepsy. Indeed, in the UK these are the ONLY uses of it which is licensed for medical practitioners.

The guy who developed it, Heinrich Keberle, was an alcoholic... He decided at one time to test this drug he had developed on himself ostensibly to see if it had any side effects. He discovered that as he took the drug that his desire for alcohol diminished to the extent that he gave up drinking entirely....

This use of the drug has never been licensed as a treatment for alcohol dependency n the UK but some psychiatrists, including mine, will prescribe it. I was started on a very low dose of 5mg 3 times a day. It helped me a lot but only when I took a little more, but less often. I continue to use it but only from time to time...there is a reason for this.

In tablet form the lowest dose of Baclofen available in the UK is 10 mg. My dose meant that I had to have it in a liquid medicine form. The beauty of this is that FOR ME (and as someone else said I am NOT a Doctor, and I am only telling my experience, and NOT giving advice) is that I still get prescribed the low dose so it is in liquid form but as a liquid it has an almost immediate effect for me so that if I feel the urge for a drink coming on I take some of this (usually 10 to 15mg) in liquid form and it quells the drinking desire.

It is supposed to be muscle and nervous system suppressant (hence the use for MS spasms and Epilepsy) and the use for alkies is a side use and it is entirely up to your Doctor if he/she prescribes it for that.

As to overdosing, I've also got another drug which is prescribed for the insomnia we've all experienced to a greater or lesser extent at some time. I told my Psychiatrist that this was having more than the desired effect and that, although preferable to the insomnia, I was finding it difficult to stay awake during the day and I asked her if I should try halving the tablets as they are scored in the middle. She expressed some surprise as he didn't think the tablets on my dose were scored. She said "ok try it, but 15mg should be seeing you right and I wouldn't normally suggest just 7.5mg but lets see what happens" or words to that effect.

When I took the tablet (or half of one) that night I noticed that they were 30mg.... I rang the hospital the next morning and spoke to the Psychiatrist's secretary to double check what she said about the dose, and asked if she could mention it to the Psychiatrist and double check I was right that I should have been on 15mg before... I jest not that less than 5 minutes later I got a call back from the Consultant Psychiatrist at the hospital to double check that that the tablets were 30mg and I went to the packet and confirmed that was right. He (the Consultant) said that I MUST NOT take a full tablet as this could ultimately do quite a bit of harm as it was twice the recommended dose. It turns out the Pharmacy was to blame as they had given me the wrong strength tablets!!!!

Tony

[Baclofenman]

Baclofen Prescribing

For the record

Whilst its primary listing may be for the treatment of spasticity, it most certainly may be prescribed "off label" by any GP - Certainly in England - I know this first hand

Regards


Bacman

[Otter]

Re: Question about two drugs. Baclofen and Subutex

I was addicted to pain pills for 13 years. I got off for some bizarre reason i was just tired of using illegal ways of getting them (online). So i found a clinic and havent done them in 6 years now.

The caveat is, I'm on Subutex, and am afraid to quit.

the two questions I have both include baclofen. I am prescribed 20mg 3 times per day. I have found my best balance is actually taking 2 of them once a day. it's enough to relieve my sciatic issues but not affec t sleep. For some BIZARRE reason when i take these I get dog tired but will refuse to go to bed. it makes no sense. i end up falling asleep several times at my desk working. no way to explain.

Anyway, my question is this. i don't THINK i took my two for the day. if I did, it was a couple hours ago. I don't feel the effects so i really don't think i did, but my question is, if I take 2 and have already taken 2 a couple hours ago, is that a dangerous dose?

Second, I have read that baclofen can be used to get people off drugs. Currently I am prescribed 16mg of subutex per day, but only take about 4mg. Is it possible to use Baclofen to stop the subutex, and if so, is there a way to find out how? I see a lot of parallel info on the two, but nothing about using one to get off the other.

Any ideas on these two questions?

tldr; is 40 mg of baclofen in a 2 hour span lethal or close to it? and can i use the baclofen to get off the subutex?

I was contacted by a member of this forum or perhaps through my own site by a man who was using baclofen to come off Suboxone, which is the same as Subutex. Suboxone also contains Naloxone. I got the impression that he was not a drug addict and I can't remember why he go onto Suboxone.

There are reports of baclofen being used to come off opiates and on my baclofenuk site below you will find a testimionial from Pascal Gramme who used baclofen to come off opiates. Ameisen's book contains a quote from a scientist to the effect that baclofen, because of its effect on dopamine was a putative candidate for poly-drug treatment.

So, the short answer seems to be that baclofen is a treatment for drugs as well as alcohol. Reckits-Benckeiser are developing Arbaclofen as a replacement product in drug treatmen, and also for alcohholism, now that Suboxone has become generic.

[Otter]

Re: Baclofen Prescribing

I have found a post from the person I mentioned:
snap_knight snap_knight is offline
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Thumbs up High Dose Baclofen for weaning off Suboxone.
I was on Buprenorphine/Suboxone for over five years. I was able to wean myself down from 12mg day down to 0.5mg/day. I tried many methods trying to get off of it when I deemed I no longer needed it. I tried cold turkey, accupuncture, and hypnosis. None of it worked...the dope sickness was always too much for me. But, I was always doing research to find other ways of getting off.

My therapist knew of my struggle and asked me to read a book he had recently obtained. It was called The End of My Addiction, by Dr. Oliver Ameisen. Dr. Ameisen was a severe alcoholic who discovered that Baclofen cured him of his desire to use alcohol. In his book, he also stated that he thought Baclofen could be used for other addictions as well. My heart did a little jump!

I started researching Baclofen which was being used frequently in Europe. It is actually a mild muscle relaxer that is mostly given to people with MS (Multiple Sclerosis) for muscle cramps. It was now being tested for Alcohol cravings. It was having huge success.

I compiled my research and took it to my physician. He agreed to let me try it the same way in which Dr. Ameisen used it. It is called Off Label use. It is off label because we are using high doses of it. I started @ 20 mg/day and upped it 20mg every third day. I took it up to 200mg day but the side effects were too much. I weaned myself back down. After finally resting on a dose of 120mg/Baclofen (20 mg every 2 hours), I started testing myself to see how long I could comfortably go without a dose of Buprenorphine. I was only on 0.5mg/day of Buprenorphine/Suboxone. I was able to stretch it out for two to two and a half days. Then I began to have restless leg syndrome severely. That was my only complaint but one I can't stand. There was no upset stomach, no diarrhea, no shakes... only restless leg.

I went back to my physician and told him the problem and asked him if he could put me on Mirapex. My therapist used it for severe chronic restless leg and said it worked wonders. My physician wrote me a script and I started taking it. I settled on three mg/day.

Two days after starting the Mirapex, I took myself off of Buprenorphine. I felt really tired but I believe I was overusing my Clonidine which my psychiatrist had prescribed for anxiety. I quit taking the Clonidine and within 24 hours, I felt much better. I had no significant dope sickness (withdrawals) during the entire time after stopping the Buprenorphine.

The only problem that I am having is being extremely tired. It seems to be good one day, then terrible the next. But, I haven't had any Buprenorphine in almost a month. I am ecstatic about being off of the Bupe.
Last edited by snap_knight; 12-14-2010 at 09:22 AM.

[story97]

Re: Question about two drugs. Baclofen and Subutex

I was contacted by a member of this forum or perhaps through my own site by a man who was using baclofen to come off Suboxone, which is the same as Subutex. Suboxone also contains Naloxone. I got the impression that he was not a drug addict and I can't remember why he go onto Suboxone.

There are reports of baclofen being used to come off opiates and on my baclofenuk site below you will find a testimionial from Pascal Gramme who used baclofen to come off opiates. Ameisen's book contains a quote from a scientist to the effect that baclofen, because of its effect on dopamine was a putative candidate for poly-drug treatment.

So, the short answer seems to be that baclofen is a treatment for drugs as well as alcohol. Reckits-Benckeiser are developing Arbaclofen as a replacement product in drug treatmen, and also for alcohholism, now that Suboxone has become generic.

WOW, Otter THANK YOU!

I'm bookmarking this, and am going to do it.

I was a drug addict but never bought street drugs or anything like that. Although doctor shopping is just as bad, and I'm pretty sure all addicts do one or the other, or both. So i'm guilty of that. But I got hooked not from recreational use, I raced supercross for 10 years and one time I had a very bad crash and was prescribed TRAMADOL of all things. That's what i got hooked on.

I got tired of the stress so i went to a clinic. they didn't know how to handle it, so they handled it like an opiate and put me on an ungodly high dose. 32mg per day! I cut myself back to 4mg. but i want off.

if the baclofen will subside the withdrawals, i'm 100% all in.

and yeah i'm familiar with both subutex and suboxone. i started on suboxone, but had my doctor change me, I didn't feel I needed the naloxone. Glad to report I've never slipped in 6 years. But since I was addicted for 13 years, my doc said my brain my never produce dopamine or whatever again, and I'm afraid that means I might be stuck for life

[_serenity_]

Re: Question about two drugs. Baclofen and Subutex

Hi Story,

Re: your question of whether taking 40 mgs twice in a day is dangerous: if you did accidentally take that much it would be uncomfortable, but is unlikely to be dangerous. I am currently at a maintenance dose of 120 mgs/day. For many years I took 140/day. I usually take my whole days' worth at once. Anyway, a couple of times I forgot I'd taken my daily dose and took it again. Boy, was that ever an ugly mistake. To go from 140/day to 280 was brutal. I had huge bouts of nausea and blurry vision, and felt absolutely horrible for a couple of days. But there was no lasting damage. Baclofen is a very safe drug. That said, overdosing on it is beyond unpleasant!

[Otter]

Re: Question about two drugs. Baclofen and Subutex

WOW, Otter THANK YOU!

I'm bookmarking this, and am going to do it.

I was a drug addict but never bought street drugs or anything like that. Although doctor shopping is just as bad, and I'm pretty sure all addicts do one or the other, or both. So i'm guilty of that. But I got hooked not from recreational use, I raced supercross for 10 years and one time I had a very bad crash and was prescribed TRAMADOL of all things. That's what i got hooked on.

I got tired of the stress so i went to a clinic. they didn't know how to handle it, so they handled it like an opiate and put me on an ungodly high dose. 32mg per day! I cut myself back to 4mg. but i want off.

if the baclofen will subside the withdrawals, i'm 100% all in.

and yeah i'm familiar with both subutex and suboxone. i started on suboxone, but had my doctor change me, I didn't feel I needed the naloxone. Glad to report I've never slipped in 6 years. But since I was addicted for 13 years, my doc said my brain my never produce dopamine or whatever again, and I'm afraid that means I might be stuck for life

There is quite a bit of interest in opiate addiction and baclofen.

Here is a link to a testimonial from Pascal Gramme: http://www.baclofenuk.com/opiatesatestimonial.htm

There's another testimonial on the French Baclofen site: Ma vie d’addict en bref – Pascal Gramme | | Association BACLOFENE

I know the doctors who run the French site and was at a conference they held in September of last year. I met an Australian doctor, Amanda Stafford, who you will see referred to here and she is going to start using baclofen to treat meths addiction in Perth, Australia.

All of these doctors can be contacted and are at major universities and hospitals so any doctor you refer this to should be able to get in touch and get guidance and confirmation that this is a legitimate treatment.

Best wishes and good luck.

[Neo]

Re: Question about two drugs. Baclofen and Subutex

1 x 10mg tablet should be enough if you've never had it before. I still got 97 odd tabs and on Day 11 only using 1 tablet at start. I'm trying completely straight first and have done it b4 without baclofen. If I do go out to an area with alcohol, I may take 1 to see what happens . I always start on low dose and find out how it effects me with everything . I have only ever 10mg valium a few times over the last 2 years. 5mg normally which means I never built tolerance.
The "I took 3mg of Phenibut and feel spaced" on first day posts is funny

If I was still on alcohol and stop start stop start like Jan with the "Yeah I'll do it tomorrow feeling" (Happened everyday), I would be taking baclofen to help me to stop .Wish I tried that but now 11 days

[story97]

Re: Question about two drugs. Baclofen and Subutex

Somnolence is a well recognised SE of Baclofen



On your low Baclofen doseage, I would expect to miss the medication would be preferable. If you start to feel like you are in withdrawal you can always take one. Dont forget, I am a punter on a web forum. Whilst I have experience of Baclofen, I am not a doctor.



I do not know the answer to this question, however you might find the following of interest;

High Dose Baclofen for weaning off Suboxone.

Regards


Bacman

EDIT: Oh, Welcome....

Want to bring this back up. You mention Somnolence is common. What I'm referring to is different.

normally if i'm very tired i go lay down. end of problem. With baclofen what i'm learning is not only do I get incredibly sleepy, I REFUSE to got to bed, and this cycle ends up costing me even more sleep. i force myself to stay up, and will fall asleep at my desk which scares my wife because it happens when i'm typing, or reading something. no reason to it.

I also have a new problem but I don't know where to go to ask about this..

The past 4 nights, I go to bed at around 11pm. All 4 nights I wake up almost exactly 2 hours later. What wakes me up is this strange feeling of needing to breathe deeply. You know how we sigh? feels like that, but if I don't do it, i start to stress.

Now, i have Asthma, but this is NOT an asthma attack. I don't wheeze. There's no trouble getting air in and out of my lungs. but it it simply feels like... I am strangling my lungs and they can't open far enough.

It gets to the point I almost hyperventilate. I have to get up, this won't subside in bed. Not only do I have to get up, I can't sit down. it only seems to help if I walk around.

This has caused great problems this week. had to cancel plans twice that I had to put lights in my attic. Went and bought the romex, hex boxes, switches fixtures etc but i'm so tired It worries me that I'll fall or have problems up there. So i put the work off figuring i'll get some sleep the next day. Well that next day after getting sleep never seems to come.

I'm (purely conjecture) thinking this might be anxiety. i've had issue with that recently. But the strange thing is I don't FEEL anxious. I also notice my blood pressure drops a bit during this. Not dangerous. but I have high BP. i'm on medicine now. Without is i get readings like 140/90 or even 150/100 (heart rate 105 per/m) Could this be causing that breathing issue?

heck I don't know, all I do know is the last 4 days this happened so that means I got 8 hours sleep, but that's over 4 days time. NOWHERE near enough to get rest.

Now it's to the point I'm afraid to go to bed. it's an awful feeling when it happens. I was recommended to take a couple benadryl to relax me. They're only 25mg pills and I took them as directed which is 2 tablets. Didn't seem to help

Not looking for miracles I just don't know what I should do. my next doctor appt is 12 days away

[_serenity_]

Re: Question about two drugs. Baclofen and Subutex

Hi Story,

I can't speak much about refusing to go to bed. I struggle somewhat with a persistence to stay up when I'm clearly tired, but I can usually override that and force myself to go to bed, and at that point I usually fall asleep within minutes.

However, you mentioned waking up and needing to breathe deeply. I distinctly remember, while titrating up on baclofen, I would wake up and become convinced that I would stop breathing. It never happened, of course. It was a thought in my head that consumed me, but I'd fall back asleep.

Later, when discussing this weird SE with others, I found that it was an extremely common one. It seems as though it is an almost normal reaction that the brain has while adjusting to baclofen.

You mentioned being prescribed 20 mgs 3x/day. Is this your normal dose? Are you still adjusting to it, or have you been at this dosage for a while? For me, while I was adjusting to a certain dosage while titrating up, I went through a ton of different SEs, but those all disappeared after a while. I never struggle with breathing problems anymore. It was just a temporary thing.

I don't have any answers for you, not knowing your history, but you may find that staying at a steady dosage for a period of time might cause these symptoms to go away.

I've had a lot of success using l-tryptophan for sleep, and l-theanine for anxiety relief.

[story97]

Re: Question about two drugs. Baclofen and Subutex

Hi Story,

I can't speak much about refusing to go to bed. I struggle somewhat with a persistence to stay up when I'm clearly tired, but I can usually override that and force myself to go to bed, and at that point I usually fall asleep within minutes.

However, you mentioned waking up and needing to breathe deeply. I distinctly remember, while titrating up on baclofen, I would wake up and become convinced that I would stop breathing. It never happened, of course. It was a thought in my head that consumed me, but I'd fall back asleep.

Later, when discussing this weird SE with others, I found that it was an extremely common one. It seems as though it is an almost normal reaction that the brain has while adjusting to baclofen.

You mentioned being prescribed 20 mgs 3x/day. Is this your normal dose? Are you still adjusting to it, or have you been at this dosage for a while? For me, while I was adjusting to a certain dosage while titrating up, I went through a ton of different SEs, but those all disappeared after a while. I never struggle with breathing problems anymore. It was just a temporary thing.

I don't have any answers for you, not knowing your history, but you may find that staying at a steady dosage for a period of time might cause these symptoms to go away.

I've had a lot of success using l-tryptophan for sleep, and l-theanine for anxiety relief.

Hi there,

Well you said you can't speak to the refusing to go to bed, but you did, very well actually. You had the same problem Iam experiencing. Except I can't seem to go bsack to sleep so far. Knowing it will subside helps.

I asked my doctor if it's ok to take this long term and he just said 'it's better than the narcotic alternative'. He then prescribed me 6 months worth.

There was a point I wanted to stop taking it.... So i did... BIG mistake. I remember I became suicidal. i didn't realize what was happening at first and it's not that i thought 'i'm going to do it''. but there was a point where 'it started to make sense' and that scared me really badly.



I was afraid my mother who I moved in with me to care was going to die, my cats were going to die, my aunts and uncles were going to go and I was afraid i'd be alone.

At the same time I noticed I started just simply feeling said. very sad. all the time.

What made me put things together was I started cramping very badly at night. my legs, calves and toes mostly. the cramps would be so severe I had to stand up and force pressure on my toes or the cramps would just take over and i couldn't move them.

I looked those things up and found they were all withdrawal symptoms.

so i went back and got a smaller dosage, weening myself off over a month. once I did get off the depression and sadness stayed. Of course the sciatic issues came back. so i again went to my doctor and told him I think i should stay on long term.

My dosage is low i think. I'm prescribed one 20mg tab 3 times daily. But I only take 2. I take them at the same time though because it gives me the best releft of symptoms over a longer period of time than taking 1 every 12 hours.

I would imagine this is a pretty low dose that I'm prescribed, and a 30 day supply for me lasts 45 days.