Campral, Naltrexone, Mirtazapine, Valium VS Baclofen, Naltrexone, Mirtazapine

[empyr3al]

Swapping meds for health, cost and efficacy. 5 Months sober, 1 week lapse stopping Naltrexone binged hard on Vodka back in Feb for reasons of self sabotage. Diazepam is in the mix again for detox risk. Tons of CBT, Therapy, prior rehabs. Not an AA man anymore but have been to 600+ meetings.

I'm on Campral (666x3) - 180$/mo, Naltrexone (50mg) - $250/mo, Mirtazapine (45mg) - $20/mo and Diazepam (7.5mg / day) - ~$6/mo

I have very few cravings if any, but I need off the diazepam and am looking at replacements.

I'd like to try tapering the Diazepam over a week or two and introduce Baclofen which i understand is cheap relatively speaking. IF I can get my GP to prescribe it. Ultimately ending up with Baclofen and Mirtazapine as my strong holds for cost reasons and start using what little Naltrexone I have on an as needed basis.

Opinions please. Maybe someone knows the cost of Baclofen in Canada currently?

[Otter]

Re: Campral, Naltrexone, Mirtazapine, Valium VS Baclofen, Naltrexone, Mirtazapine

Swapping meds for health, cost and efficacy. 5 Months sober, 1 week lapse stopping Naltrexone binged hard on Vodka back in Feb for reasons of self sabotage. Diazepam is in the mix again for detox risk. Tons of CBT, Therapy, prior rehabs. Not an AA man anymore but have been to 600+ meetings.

I'm on Campral (666x3) - 180$/mo, Naltrexone (50mg) - $250/mo, Mirtazapine (45mg) - $20/mo and Diazepam (7.5mg / day) - ~$6/mo

I have very few cravings if any, but I need off the diazepam and am looking at replacements.

I'd like to try tapering the Diazepam over a week or two and introduce Baclofen which i understand is cheap relatively speaking. IF I can get my GP to prescribe it. Ultimately ending up with Baclofen and Mirtazapine as my strong holds for cost reasons and start using what little Naltrexone I have on an as needed basis.

Opinions please. Maybe someone knows the cost of Baclofen in Canada currently?

Hi,

Golly gosh, what a combo of drugs.

Baclofen would help, I believe, although I am not a doctor, in helping get you off diazapam. I got onto diazapam after my father had a heart attack at Sunday dinner several years ago and I had a hell of a time getting off and felt lousy for years after until I got onto baclofen. I just felt drained and sluggish all the time.

My wife is on baclofen and Campral, was on Mirtazapine for a couple of years and relapsed when she stopped taking it. She didn't like that it seemed to make her gain weight. You'll find a lot about these drugs on the new forum, The End Of My Addiction | Forum Discussing Alcohol Medication where most using meds to come off alcohol are now posting.

River Pharmacy are in Winnipeg and are widely used here.

Best wishes from a fellow Canuck.

[empyr3al]

Re: Campral, Naltrexone, Mirtazapine, Valium VS Baclofen, Naltrexone, Mirtazapine

Thanks for the reply Otter. It is a hella lotta drugs isn't it. Mirtazapine seems to have flipped some sort of switch for me, but it could be the valium thats keeping me sober atm. Last time I took myself down off valium I lapsed. Ditched the Trintellix and went to Mirtazapine. Trintellix was horrific for me.

Unlike your wife, it was in my interest to gain weight and the specialist chose Mirtazapine as his method. I don't plan to stop the Mirtazapine as I credit it as the reason I don't drink (as well as the valium). How does your wife like Campral and Baclofen? Where they all concurrent (Campral, Baclofen and Mirtazapine?) when she stopped the Mirt? Or the Bac and Campral are the replacement for the Mirt?

I just went to see my GP because I have hives. Opportune time to check out my liver AST/ALT and req a blood test. Had printed out a bunch from baclofentreatment.com for him. He seems slightly reluctant but open to possibilities but I think he is thinking other drugs for anxiety and not Bac. I see him again Thursday so hopefully he will have had time to review it. He kept mentioning spasms which silly me I forgot I get tons of cramping and spasm when I'm not drinking or using Valium. He mentioned I probably wouldn't get the doses required but he seems a little curious. I dropped the stats about how much its used in Europe. I was pressing that CAMH prescribes baclofen and included the referral form (hinting that if he won't, I'll ask for a referral and drive to Toronto).

I'll check out the forum, thanks for the tip.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Re: Campral, Naltrexone, Mirtazapine, Valium VS Baclofen, Naltrexone, Mirtazapine

... 5 Months sober, 1 week lapse stopping Naltrexone binged hard on Vodka back in Feb for reasons of self sabotage.
...
I have very few cravings if any, but I need off the diazepam and am looking at replacements.

I'd like to try tapering the Diazepam over a week or two and introduce Baclofen which i understand is cheap relatively speaking.

...start using what little Naltrexone I have on an as needed basis.

Hi, Empy, and welcome to the forum.

hmmm. I don't know if I've got any solid suggestions, but I do have some thoughts.

It's not been very long since your relapse. Having just come out of a relapse, and still working on making sure it doesn't happen again, I'd be reluctant to change anything I knew had worked before and keep doing what was working now.

That's a whole heckuva lot of money! Are the meds not covered in Canada? Naltrexone is generic, just like baclofen, so I don't understand why it would cost so much. And naltrexone, unlike baclofen, is approved for AUD treatment. It might be harder to get a script for baclofen than for naltrexone. But maybe not? Sorry to be wishy-washy, but if you have a doc who'll prescribe naltrexone, and s/he's aware of your situation, s/he may prescribe baclofen without hesitation. If you don't have a doc prescribing, then it may be a little more challenging. We can certainly help with info for your doc, for either medication.

Baclofen is not a direct substitution for Valium. Nor for alcohol. Baclofen may work to reduce anxiety for some people (it definitely works that way for me!) but not necessarily everyone. And it's not a direct transition. Meaning the anxiety-reducing benefits may happen over time, not immediately. Most of us have to titrate up on baclofen to get the most out of it. Don't get me wrong. I take baclofen, it's saved my life, and I don't currently take the other meds you've mentioned. But it's not going to replace valium, which I also take (among other things) for 'breakthrough' anxiety.

Also, if it's not broken, why fix it? I mean as far as the valium and mirtazapine are concerned. I found going from almost daily use to taking it for situations effortless when I was managing my anxiety and stress in other ways. I just forgot to take it because I didn't need it. YMMV, of course, and if you find yourself eager to take it or taking or more or any of that stuff, well, then it's probably not healthy. But otherwise... ?

Like I said, there are some links we can provide if you want to take the info to a doctor.

Sorry I don't know anything about Canadian costs. Too busy worrying about health care costs in the U.S.

Hope you'll update, and keep us posted!

EDIT to add that I don't think that's a lot of meds to treat someone with addiction. Not by any stretch. Sounds normal to me, actually, since many of us have depression and anxiety along with the primary addiction.

Just saw that you brought your doctor some stuff. That's good. Hope it works out.

[empyr3al]

Re: Campral, Naltrexone, Mirtazapine, Valium VS Baclofen, Naltrexone, Mirtazapine

Thanks for the welcome Ne/Neva Eva,

It's not been very long since your relapse. Having just come out of a relapse, and still working on making sure it doesn't happen again, I'd be reluctant to change anything I knew had worked before and keep doing what was working now.

This is complicated. It was got under control quickly so its half relapse/half lapse. I was coming off of Trintellix and had tapered down my Valium and was at 0. Some marriage things came up and I was mixed up mentally from the Trintellix. It was not "Working" per say at that time as it was increadibly difficult to maintain sobriety and my head was spinning around in circles. No way to live life.

That's a whole heckuva lot of money! Are the meds not covered in Canada? Naltrexone is generic, just like baclofen, so I don't understand why it would cost so much. And naltrexone, unlike baclofen, is approved for AUD treatment. It might be harder to get a script for baclofen than for naltrexone. But maybe not? Sorry to be wishy-washy, but if you have a doc who'll prescribe naltrexone, and s/he's aware of your situation, s/he may prescribe baclofen without hesitation. If you don't have a doc prescribing, then it may be a little more challenging. We can certainly help with info for your doc, for either medication.

My benefits may not continue. Naltrexone (Apotex generic) costs that much in Canada. Canada pays insane amounts of money for some drugs. Buying online is risky behavior at best. Naltrexone is not exactly difficult to get in Canada since Disulfram is now not approved. Only approved drugs in Canada are Campral and Naltrexone pill for AUD. First hand Canadian GPs claim its depression and prescribe SSRIs and SNRIs. Which are generally completely missing the target. I have experience with it and was educated in Campral and Naltrexone when approaching my GP. The Mirt was prescribed by a specialist who if I could get an appt with I could get BAC.

Baclofen is not a direct substitution for Valium. Nor for alcohol. Baclofen may work to reduce anxiety for some people (it definitely works that way for me!) but not necessarily everyone. And it's not a direct transition. Meaning the anxiety-reducing benefits may happen over time, not immediately. Most of us have to titrate up on baclofen to get the most out of it. Don't get me wrong. I take baclofen, it's saved my life, and I don't currently take the other meds you've mentioned. But it's not going to replace valium, which I also take (among other things) for 'breakthrough' anxiety.

I plan if I get it to titrate it up, the max I've ever gonna get from my GP is 80 imho. Taper down the valium possibly with clonazepam. I have 2 months supply of Campral and over a month of Naltrexone. So the switching would be inverted between them all. Anxiety dealt with as required.

Also, if it's not broken, why fix it? I mean as far as the valium and mirtazapine are concerned. I found going from almost daily use to taking it for situations effortless when I was managing my anxiety and stress in other ways. I just forgot to take it because I didn't need it. YMMV, of course, and if you find yourself eager to take it or taking or more or any of that stuff, well, then it's probably not healthy. But otherwise... ?

Nal and Camp are considered Regiments and not used long term in Canada. BAC and Mirt can be indefinite. I don't take anything over whats prescribed and intentionally down my 5mg/valiums into Quarter tabs and use as required but the half life is so long that its hard to use on demand without lasting effects for the next day making it hard to distinguish what is happening. Which is where Clonazepam used for taper would step in temporarily to measure the effectiveness of the BAC as its titrated.

EDIT to add that I don't think that's a lot of meds to treat someone with addiction. Not by any stretch. Sounds normal to me, actually, since many of us have depression and anxiety along with the primary addiction.

Well right now I'm feeling no cravings and have it managed. The costs are going to be prohibitively expensive shortly to the point I need to plan alternatives. I have no issues with carrying around and using Medi-Safe reminder on my phone for scheduling dosages and tracking which goes along with Campral, so BAC is of little concern for not being tracked. EDIT to more closely respond to comorbidity. Alcohol being prevalent in my life for over 20 years and prior recreational drug use MDMA, cocaine. Prozac had been tried, ... stopped and self medicated. Tried Cipralex (Yuk), Pristiq (Drank more), Trazadone (got to sleep while sober), Trintellix (awful, blackouts, bad drunks). All those were prescribed to treat what is either Anxiety or Depression hoping it would stymie the self medicating with no effect.

Hope that illustrates what I'm attempting to accomplish. Thanks for the wise words about how BAC doesn't replace diazepam (initially or ever).

(Hope I used the quote system correctly!)

[Mom21961]

Re: Campral, Naltrexone, Mirtazapine, Valium VS Baclofen, Naltrexone, Mirtazapine

[MENTION=23850]empyr3al[/MENTION] just a note on anxiety meds.. Effexor is said to make drinking worse.

[empyr3al]

Re: Campral, Naltrexone, Mirtazapine, Valium VS Baclofen, Naltrexone, Mirtazapine

[MENTION=23850]empyr3al[/MENTION] just a note on anxiety meds.. Effexor is said to make drinking worse.

I definitely agree; I was on Pristiq which is essentially Effexor for about 2 or 3 years. I have also witnessed an old co-workers drinking go full blown using it... pretty much the same drug. I was never told that would happen. I believe most in Canada are unaware of that potential problem. I was switched to Trintellix from Pristiq and things went even more haywire. Trintellix I suffered memory loss, stupor, black outs, total loss of inhibition, riddles that I insisted others would need to understand and absolutely bonkers anxiety. I had never experienced that before. So fair warning on the Trintellix if you drink moderately.

[empyr3al]

Re: Campral, Naltrexone, Mirtazapine, Valium VS Baclofen, Naltrexone, Mirtazapine

BAC begins its titration tonight as per Section 8 of Practical Protocol for Prescribing Baclofen in Alcohol Addiction – Baclofen Treatment for Alcoholism

ALP/AST/ALT/Albumin/Bilirubin all in spec. All set, here goes.

Project kill off the Valium. Hoping its trivial as its been only 4 weeks of use (most recently) or 8 weeks out of the past 5 months. Here is an interesting article regarding the subject of Bac used to treat benzo addiction. In theory I could stop all together but I'd prefer the softer way. Either way the anxiety is a reality that persists in my life and this should be a good test of a potential replacement.

Starting point, 6.25mg diazepam for 2 days down from 7.5. Feel in control and calm, with a slight sense of optimism. In 2 days it will be 5mg. Measure how I am feeling, blood pressure, etc. From then on dropping 1.25mg every 2 or 3 days. Any slight hint of issues my GP gets notified and i return to the last point I was at where things were normal, stabilize and try again.

Moving them further apart, BAC vs Diazepam. Curious to find out if the result will be anxiogenic or anxiolytic.

Theoretical max considering titration I can hit around 40-50mg/day at the next appointment date. Because after the first week i have 9 extra pills from the 30mg day 7 mark. Leaves me with 19 days until I see him next and 780 mg. So I can push around 50mg/day after the first week assuming no issues. At which point i will need to convince my GP to go further if necessary. He prescribed it because I do get spasms and muscle lock ups when I taper valium or alcohol. He also knows what it is because i mentioned it when selecting Campral and Naltrexone. He just didnt realize the dosages required. He has the info on hand to read but didnt have the chance to read it yet. My gauge of him is that he is willing to try this out with me. Cost 18 cents Canadian per 10mg tablet + dispensary fees.

[empyr3al]

Re: Campral, Naltrexone, Mirtazapine, Valium VS Baclofen, Naltrexone, Mirtazapine

Update. At 0mg Diazepam and its mostly out of my system considering its half life. Titrated pretty quickly to 30mg Baclofen; exploring how its working. 30-45mg Mirt but more often 30 as I sleep to long at the moment. The usual 3*666 Campral doses and 50mg Naltrexone. Time seems to be passing quicker. Feel somewhat in a fog bubble. Smoking doesn't seem the same and is mostly out of curiosity/unneeded habit for something to do. Have no craving for alcohol but I didn't to start with due to the diazepam. I'm going to let this sit as it is until i see my GP mid month. My worry was mostly about killing off the diazepam and what would happen in terms of anxiety and craving. Seems to be going as planned.

[Otter]

Re: Campral, Naltrexone, Mirtazapine, Valium VS Baclofen, Naltrexone, Mirtazapine

Thanks for the reply Otter. It is a hella lotta drugs isn't it. Mirtazapine seems to have flipped some sort of switch for me, but it could be the valium thats keeping me sober atm. Last time I took myself down off valium I lapsed. Ditched the Trintellix and went to Mirtazapine. Trintellix was horrific for me.

Unlike your wife, it was in my interest to gain weight and the specialist chose Mirtazapine as his method. I don't plan to stop the Mirtazapine as I credit it as the reason I don't drink (as well as the valium). How does your wife like Campral and Baclofen? Where they all concurrent (Campral, Baclofen and Mirtazapine?) when she stopped the Mirt? Or the Bac and Campral are the replacement for the Mirt?

I just went to see my GP because I have hives. Opportune time to check out my liver AST/ALT and req a blood test. Had printed out a bunch from baclofentreatment.com for him. He seems slightly reluctant but open to possibilities but I think he is thinking other drugs for anxiety and not Bac. I see him again Thursday so hopefully he will have had time to review it. He kept mentioning spasms which silly me I forgot I get tons of cramping and spasm when I'm not drinking or using Valium. He mentioned I probably wouldn't get the doses required but he seems a little curious. I dropped the stats about how much its used in Europe. I was pressing that CAMH prescribes baclofen and included the referral form (hinting that if he won't, I'll ask for a referral and drive to Toronto).

I'll check out the forum, thanks for the tip.

My wife was on baclofen and mirtazopine for a few years then stopped the mirtazapine, and reduced or stopped the bac as well, and relapsed. Last autumn she got back onto baclofen seriously after a very bad relapse and I suggested campral because there is a lot of talk about this combo for Alzheimer's and her mother has been diagnosed with that and I figured she might be at risk. We can get both drugs here without prescription. She is now on those, but also takes a lot of supplements like l-glutamine and vits. It seems to be working very well but she is gaining weight.

I believe there is a clinic in downtown Toronto which prescribes baclofen. It's associated with U of T med school. Someone posted about it a while back.

[empyr3al]

Re: Campral, Naltrexone, Mirtazapine, Valium VS Baclofen, Naltrexone, Mirtazapine

My wife was on baclofen and mirtazopine for a few years then stopped the mirtazapine, and reduced or stopped the bac as well, and relapsed. Last autumn she got back onto baclofen seriously after a very bad relapse and I suggested campral because there is a lot of talk about this combo for Alzheimer's and her mother has been diagnosed with that and I figured she might be at risk. We can get both drugs here without prescription. She is now on those, but also takes a lot of supplements like l-glutamine and vits. It seems to be working very well but she is gaining weight.

I believe there is a clinic in downtown Toronto which prescribes baclofen. It's associated with U of T med school. Someone posted about it a while back.

I understand campral is only effective after recovery; it worked well for me for many months. Then I lapsed. I have like 400$ of it, so about 2 months supply. I use the mirt and naltrexone mostly unless I know I am sober for lengths of time at which time I start using the campral again. I have scripts for baclofen but not in the quanitity that is required. It knocked me on my figurative ass taking bac so I stopped quite quickly. I'll fill it constantly and then see what I can do with it. I have to wait until July to have a doc with the knowledge to prescribe high dosages and suggest what to do. Otherwise been sober for a number of days. Had a couple bad days. But outta 6 months its like 90-95% perfect abstinence. So I do not lose hope with a lapse. Life hit hard. Tried to drink it out; didn't work. Likely the NAL in my system. Using all my therapy methods that are not prescription based and doing well. Hoping you are too

[empyr3al]

Re: Campral, Naltrexone, Mirtazapine, Valium VS Baclofen, Naltrexone, Mirtazapine

I take B100 time release, B1 minimum 50 and at times 100mg, C1000 time release. Flirted with 5HTP for a day but it seemed to do little and may interact with the mirtazapine. I need to get a consult before I play with any other supplements. For that actual consult I need to wait until July. Along with my mix of Campral, Mirt and Nal. Got a bad lung infection playing in the cold and wet weather while playing with my job. Tried Benelyn until I read the label. WHAT! It has menthol in it. I have 6 BAC testers and they went nuts. So suggest to stay away from it unless you need it. I have inhalers and just started an antibiotic. Drinking, cold and wet weather; bad mix.

[Otter]

Re: Campral, Naltrexone, Mirtazapine, Valium VS Baclofen, Naltrexone, Mirtazapine

My wife is now on baclofen and Campral and this seems to be the most effective combination so far. Campral doesn't appear to have the side effects that mirtazapine had and it this combination is now being advanced for alcoholism as well as Alzheimers, Parkinsons and a host of other neurological disorders so I'm hoping this is finally getting close to a long term fix. She's the most stable she's been when not drinking that I've ever seen her.

We are fortunate to live somewhere with almost no regulation on meds so we can get these over the counter very cheaply, a few dollars a box from pharmacies. They'll even phone a friendly doctor and get a prescription over the phone.

[empyr3al]

Re: Campral, Naltrexone, Mirtazapine, Valium VS Baclofen, Naltrexone, Mirtazapine

My wife is now on baclofen and Campral and this seems to be the most effective combination so far. Campral doesn't appear to have the side effects that mirtazapine had and it this combination is now being advanced for alcoholism as well as Alzheimers, Parkinsons and a host of other neurological disorders so I'm hoping this is finally getting close to a long term fix. She's the most stable she's been when not drinking that I've ever seen her.

We are fortunate to live somewhere with almost no regulation on meds so we can get these over the counter very cheaply, a few dollars a box from pharmacies. They'll even phone a friendly doctor and get a prescription over the phone.

Baclofen i am hoarding at the moment to push myself if needed. Mirt knocks me out for hours. Campral seems to do nothing noticable. If it works for her i will take note of it and titrate myself up again. Not sure if leaves me enough intelligence to run a business, so it will have to wait for a while.