Hi! Im here again. A small voice still looking for friends on their way out of this

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Re: Hi! I’m here again. A small voice still looking for friends on their way out of t

I feel like I have gained some of form of "indifference" simply through abstinence; it seems the longer I don't drink or think of it as something I do, the less it phases me (sure I still have cravings once in a while but I just think of it as something that's not an option). Easier said than done I know…

Great thoughts, @Mulburry. I agree with you that indifference is something that can be achieved by distance of use and some “switch” that happens for whatever reason. I’ve seen too many people recover from different approaches to deny the fact that there’s a switch of some sort that happens in different ways for different people. And also that there’s no guarantee, regardless of the method. Liver failure, AA, all kinds of therapy, life consequences, nothing prescribed, lots of things prescribed, exercise, ayahuasca and psilocybin, etc… I’ve seen all of it work. And all of it fail.

Sobriety, even long term sobriety, is not something to be taken for granted.

Baclofen gave me a sense of security for years, so that I didn’t remain abstinent. I regret that now. In my earliest posts, I swore that if I reached “indifference”, I’d never drink again. Ha. If only I knew…

But you know what? Drinking, when I wasn’t drinking like an alcoholic—meaning very rarely, and even more rarely overdoing it—was fun! And I thought I would be okay forever. But then I stopped taking baclofen, and exercising, and well, doing the things that got me sober.

MWO meds section was a shit-show at that point with more trolls than people actually working toward sobriety. And it was a HUGE part of my being able to stay sober in the beginning. I’m still bitter about what happened back then. Honestly, it’s never recovered. (Need to add that and CM to my resentments list, probably as number one. How could I have misplaced that evil sob? Anyway..) (as if I’d EVER make amends to him just because I hate him for his evilness and idiocy. Wow. I have a long way to go. But thank goodness MWO was bought and he was banned. I suppose that’s reparations, in some way. He can spew his evilness elsewhere, because we all know he hasn’t stopped.)

And bad stuff in life happens. And I still had no coping skills. I still don’t! Working on it though. @Mulburry, what do you do daily that helps? I’m sure you’ve posted about it, and I’ll look back, but I’d love to hear what you’re doing now.

[Mulburry]

Re: Hi! I’m here again. A small voice still looking for friends on their way out of t

I agree with you that indifference is something that can be achieved by distance of use and some “switch” that happens for whatever reason. I’ve seen too many people recover from different approaches to deny the fact that there’s a switch of some sort that happens in different ways for different people.

I guess for me it was just the pain and suffering, got to a point where I couldn't take it anymore; the toll it was taking on my mental health and physical health just made it a necessity for me. The cycle I was in was basically keep on drinking and take the slow road to death or stop altogether. I'm also pretty stubborn, so that personality trait thankfully helped me here, I just had to 100% commit and set my mind to it. I just wish I'd been able to find that determination/commitment earlier (before it got so bad)... I'd certainly recommend it to others.

I’ve seen all of it work. And all of it fail.

Sobriety, even long term sobriety, is not something to be taken for granted.

Ya for sure, its something that's always in the back of mind. I've heard too many stories of people who were sober for years and then lost it. Just because I have a year+ under my belt doesn't guarantee anything.

nd bad stuff in life happens. And I still had no coping skills. I still don’t! Working on it though. @Mulburry, what do you do daily that helps? I’m sure you’ve posted about it, and I’ll look back, but I’d love to hear what you’re doing now.

Ya I struggle with coping skills / stress as well... but I know now all too well that drinking especially the ensuing withdrawal/post withdrawal will make all that ten times worse.
I'm not doing anything really too exceptional, a bit of meditation, exercise and just trying to keep things as stress free as possible for the moment.

[DragonbytheSea]

Re: Hi! I’m here again. A small voice still looking for friends on their way out of t

Thank you, [MENTION=24764]DragonbytheSea[/MENTION]. I have been diagnosed with CPTSD and it explains so much.

It blew my mind. I was looking for help with my ex, whose dissociation during a dangerous situation endangered me. I'm still gobsmacked. I suspect that much of what hampers me are effects from the crib, literally before I could wield language, which means I was traumatized before I could think. I have got plenty of trauma that I remember too, but I suspect the early stuff gave me the default setting of fearful. And emotional flashbacks are just CRAZY making in themselves. For a long time, I woke up every morning in a flashback. It was terrible.

A friend and fellow sufferer gave me an analogy: For people with anxiety disorders, anxiety is the shark in the water. For us, anxiety is the water.

[DragonbytheSea]

Re: Hi! I’m here again. A small voice still looking for friends on their way out of t

Hey, [MENTION=24764]DragonbytheSea[/MENTION]. You’re going to have to break that down for me even more than you did.

S
OK. It's not that hard, or maybe it's impossible. I really cannot explain anymore than "memorizing feeling/memory." So, I'll try a couple examples.

I was anxious nearly to the point of suicide. I had been to the brink and back once already with a nightmare situation. I was unemployable, or thought I was. My SO was being an abusive prick. I was on my back porch when my phone rang. The manager of Kmart (yeah, that far back) called to say I had gotten a job there. It might sound silly now, but getting that job felt like life or death to me, and it may have actually been life or death for me. It was the first time I remembered to sit still and memorize the feeling. It was relief, joy, a sense of empowerment, a path of escape. It was F*CKING HUGE!!! It was a job at Kmart, but that did not matter, only the feeling mattered. The feeling of "I have got this. I am going to be OK."

As I typed that paragraph, the feeling washed over me. That is a lot of juice to squeeze from a crappy job at an almost dead Kmart.

My second example is indifference. That drink getting warm. It was a friggin' miracle. It was amazing. I was floored. I was not going to tolerate a warm drink on my first day of indfference, so I dumped it. My second drink got warm too. I did not care that it existed. I was thirsty and drinking water and tea. It was as if I was a kid again who had never been drunk. The stuff tasted bad. My body, which still wanted many things, did not want that. I do not think I was practicing that particular technique at the time, but the HUGENESS (we, who have been there, know) seared itself on my memory, and I make frequent trips back there now, just as I do that moment on my back porch. It was the beginning of the end of a nightmare, but I got there at 80 mg., and I did not stay on it for long.

Sorry if that's oblique. It's the best words will do for me talking about feels.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Re: Hi! I’m here again. A small voice still looking for friends on their way out of t

S
Sorry if that's oblique. It's the best words will do for me talking about feels.

ha. Not oblique at all. Struck me right in the gut. I wish I'd internalized what it felt like when I stopped liking beer, and started drinking wine. I couldn't stand the taste of beer anymore.

I distinctly remember the day I didn't stop for a bottle (or two) of wine on the way home from work. I was home for maybe an hour before I realized I didn't have anything to drink. (Usually, it was bra off, kitchen for a glass of booze, bedroom to change into comfy-cozy, then back to kitchen and then--back then--get on MWO with the TV on. I didn't want to announce that I was indifferent, but after several days of finding half full glasses, and waking up without a hangover (despite the baclofen side effects) I was pretty sure I was there.

That was in February 2010. It lasted for four years. I stopped taking baclofen, had taken for granted my sobriety, and life happened. I still had no coping skills and when it all hit the fan, I drank. It was so easy. It still is.

When we moved into this house, I remember getting beer for my dad when my parents came to visit. It was in our outside fridge for so long that it went bad.

I also have so many bad memories of getting sober, staying sober, being on MWO with the trolls from hell, that I tend to go straight there. And honestly, as I've mentioned, it's something that for some reason the last treatment center really helped me with... (the right therapist/therapy? age? maturity? desperation? just exhausted by blaming other people?)

I want to channel that. So thank you. I gotta say, even trying to do it now, in the moment, it's hard. Epistemological=gratitude. In brain speak. Remembering the things that create the positive changes, creates new neuropaths to positive improvements and away from...trauma. And it's a choice.

Have I got that right?

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Re: Hi! I’m here again. A small voice still looking for friends on their way out of t

And hayzeus, what I wouldn't give for indifference again. Thinking back on it, being completely free of the compulsion to drink, without worrying about triggers or anything else...

I couldn't imagine it before I started baclofen. I can't imagine it now. And I lived it! Not only that, my husband also reached indifference and so did a friend of mine. I WATCHED it happen. Not like in an online platform, though I value this place and the friends I've made here so much. But in person. Saw my husband, his life falling apart, and I was already gone. Then he started baclofen and stopped drinking, and then stopped smoking pot...

Life was never so good.

[guardian]

Re: Hi! I’m here again. A small voice still looking for friends on their way out of t

And hayzeus, what I wouldn't give for indifference again. Thinking back on it, being completely free of the compulsion to drink, without worrying about triggers or anything else...

I couldn't imagine it before I started baclofen. I can't imagine it now. And I lived it! Not only that, my husband also reached indifference and so did a friend of mine. I WATCHED it happen. Not like in an online platform, though I value this place and the friends I've made here so much. But in person. Saw my husband, his life falling apart, and I was already gone. Then he started baclofen and stopped drinking, and then stopped smoking pot...

Life was never so good.

You'll get back there Ne. I don't even know whether I'm indifferent anymore at the dose I take, but my 4 year old son, who I see once a week (court ordered) called me another man's name nearly every time he addressed me tonight. I still love his mother. He is my joy. Again, I'm not sure that the baclofen is doing much anymore, but it helped me to 4 years of almost complete abstinence. The 2 times that I did drink were well-under control. I want to drink until I black out right now from the pain of the day. But the obsession is gone. I don't remember the sensation. It's weird. I grew up a lot having to deal with shit like this without being fucked up.

[guardian]

Re: Hi! I’m here again. A small voice still looking for friends on their way out of t

I'm sorry for hijacking your thread. I really do empathize with where you are. For me it's the opposite to a degree - I have a hard time remembering not being able to stop drinking, or using it everything I felt anything. But I know it happened.

I just had a rotten day and I needed to say something. But I didn't need it enough to start my own thread. Oh no, that would be too much attention lol. I'm realizing that the things I'm going through, like yesterday, they're not unique, but they are somewhat remarkable. I don't have to be okay. It's expected for something like that to wreck me. Thank God for baclofen and the work that I've put in to cope in healthy ways. Merry Christmas.

[DragonbytheSea]

Re: Hi! I’m here again. A small voice still looking for friends on their way out of t

Remembering the things that create the positive changes, creates new neuropaths to positive . . ."

Almost there. But I think you might have to take a guided heavy shroom trip to get out of your intellect. Remembering the positive feelings creates new neuropaths to positive feelings. We generally remember bad things perfectly and forever. Why can't we do that with good feelings? Our brains are big enough to accommodate the data.

It is not about functioning better. It is about feeling better. It is all about being on your own side (especially emotionally), in your own head, no matter what.

All that addresses trauma specifically, but it's all trauma IMO.

[DragonbytheSea]

Re: Hi! I’m here again. A small voice still looking for friends on their way out of t

my 4 year old son, who I see once a week (court ordered) called me another man's name nearly every time he addressed me tonight.

Damn! That rips my heart out. My grandson called me "auntie" last time I saw him, so I feel a fraction of your pain.

[guardian]

Re: Hi! I’m here again. A small voice still looking for friends on their way out of t

Almost there. But I think you might have to take a guided heavy shroom trip to get out of your intellect. Remembering the positive feelings creates new neuropaths to positive feelings. We generally remember bad things perfectly and forever. Why can't we do that with good feelings? Our brains are big enough to accommodate the data.

It is not about functioning better. It is about feeling better. It is all about being on your own side (especially emotionally), in your own head, no matter what.

All that addresses trauma specifically, but it's all trauma IMO.

Out of curiosity, how does one go about finding a guide? Are there online options? In the midwest US, it isn't the sort of thing that's advertised on Craigslist lol.

[DragonbytheSea]

Re: Hi! I’m here again. A small voice still looking for friends on their way out of t

Out of curiosity, how does one go about finding a guide? Are there online options? In the midwest US, it isn't the sort of thing that's advertised on Craigslist lol.

I am sorry. I do not know anything about the midwest specifically. It is legal in Oregon and is exploding on the coast. I would call someone like this:

Psilocybin & Psychedelic Assisted Therapy in Oregon | Psychedelic Passage

[Mulburry]

Re: Hi! I’m here again. A small voice still looking for friends on their way out of t

I've done mushrooms (and other psychedelics) hundreds of times. They really can be quite mind expanding and give you a fresh perspective... but... maybe I've just become desensitized but I find after a while, as the regular life grinds away at you, it kind of fades away. i guess maybe the key is to be able to try to remember the experience and try to put yourself back into that mind frame (as frequently as possible), a bit like you try to do by remembering "indifference".

[DragonbytheSea]

Re: Hi! I’m here again. A small voice still looking for friends on their way out of t

Here is more recent stuff on it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGqFxjQI3is&t=418s

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Re: Hi! I’m here again. A small voice still looking for friends on their way out of t

Just wanted to let you all know I’m reading and taking it all in and am kind of overwhelmed by how much I want to respond to, but after a week at my parent's house (longest in years, without any meltdowns or irrational behavior from any of us!) I still need tonight to decompress. And to think about what you’ve written.

Ftr, there’s no hijacking here. I wish there was a general discussion thread, though those can go sideways. In the meantime, it’s still a relief to know I’m not alone and that it works.