New here. Is this place dead? "baclofen"

[_serenity_]

Re: New here. Is this place dead? "baclofen"

Hi [MENTION=24738]johaven1024[/MENTION],

Baclofen does work, and most of the people who were successful just stopped posting. There are a ton of switch threads on this forum, but it's been quiet for so many years that you may have to go back. Here is my advice: Buy (or get a prescription for) Antabuse. It dovetails very well with baclofen. You are right, people can drink on baclofen but the hangovers are terrible. You will have a much easier time if you're sober, but that is hard to do without help. You can buy Antabuse on alldaychemist.com for very cheap, and they are reliable and reputable. Thankfully baclofen does start working on cravings early on.

I didn't have any severe SEs, just some nausea and dizziness when I upped my dosage. I am not sure what titration plan you are on but try not to go up more than 10 mgs every 4 days or you risk terrible SEs. Slow and steady wins the race. Many of the failures on this forum happened because people tried to titrate up too fast, then experienced severe SEs and blamed the baclofen.

[Stevo]

Re: New here. Is this place dead? "baclofen"

[MENTION=24738]johaven1024[/MENTION], I continued to drink throughout both of my courses of bac, and am still drinking now; albeit, far less than I used to drink. On my first time with bac I felt indifferent at around 130 mg a day, it has been different this time. I have had to go much higher and am currently on 365 mg a day with indifference kicking in a little more as I go higher, it seems like every 5 mg I go up the less beer I drink. I was drinking at least 16 beers a day, with many days easily drinking more before starting to take bac again, and the onset of indifference was a much slower process this time due to many factors out of my control. I can't drink any more than 4-5 beers now but I did drink a hell of a lot as I was titrating up. I have found the second time it takes far more to reach a switch, I regret stopping taking bac the first time but life can be hectic and I was going through a lot. I came off of bac with the clear intention of drinking myself to death, which could not be done whilst taking baclofen.

6 years later here I am doing it again and wishing I hadn't stopped at all, drinking oneself to death is a much slower process than I had hoped it would be and I'm no longer in the same headspace. I will not be flippant enough to make the same mistake twice.

Early morning here in Australia and have to get ready for work but everything [MENTION=14524]_serenity_[/MENTION] has suggested is something I have seen advised to others on here over the years and worked. I couldn't take antabuse as I would be tempted to drink on it anyway, I chose the hangovers. Titrating up too fast is a sure fire way to cause unbearable SE's, as I got higher in my dosage I realised I could only go up 5 mg a week instead of every 3 days. I was getting terribly ill and it would be the end of me for the day. Going up 5 a week had alleviated this problem. My main SE's were insomnia, nausea and a little brain fogginess from what I recall. Most of these were not so bad to deal with and the insomnia was mitigated with phenergan. It wasn't until I got up into the 300's I started getting really sick because my body couldn't adjust fast enough, hence the weekly titration now.

It does work and you will have good support from here on in I suspect. I have been posting again for the last 12-18 months with very little interaction as the forum seemed to be moribund, this has changed in the last couple of weeks.

Searching switch or indifference I found to be problematic as the words have been used so many times on here, try to stay the course and you will see it play out in your own life.

Everyone's experience seems to be a little different, hang around and take your bac. I'm looking forward to reading more about your journey.

Cheers,

Steve.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Re: New here. Is this place dead? "baclofen"

I've got to get this out of the way and then I'll get to the meat of the meal. I was in a lousy, lousy mood yesterday, as evidenced by my post, which I've quoted. (And guess what? I've learned to multiquote again, and wanted to reply to everyone. Because general adoration and good points were made by all.) Instead I'm going to reply to Johaven's questions which I meant to quote but didn't. Whatever. I'll start a new post. ha.

@Stevo, I don't want to hijack @johaven1024 thread. He's actually new here. The two of us are just muddling our way through doing this AGAIN. Which, for the record, johaven, I don't recommend.

Life sucks, having alcohism sucks, but it all sucks less with contented sobriety. Love the monkey and the smiley, and can't wait to wrap my hands around all the things I used to be able to do here. Including type, ffs.

So whatever questions you have, and whenever you decide to ask them, please feel free. We're all on the same journey, but miles apart and with different experiences. I'm switching back over to the thread I most recently started now.

Don't listen to me when I'm all pouty and out of sorts. I miss the happy, [MENTION=22203]Stevo[/MENTION]. So, so much.

Don't listen to me when I'm pretentious, either, unless I'm right. And if I'm not, someone will be along to straighten that out quick-like.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Re: New here. Is this place dead? "baclofen"

Hi Stevo and NE, I did get my Bac. The problem is I am still drinking and when I tried to take Bac and drink the hangover was SOOO much worse. I'm not sure I can do both at the same time. I think I would have to take a break and stop drinking and try Bac sober. This is going to be hard to do. Any experience on this?

I drank, and am drinking, and the only time I stopped drinking was when I reached indifference. Then I was contentedly sober for four years.

The "switch" vs. "indifference" is technical but important. When I started this process, I thought I'd wake up one day and like a light switch, I wouldn't want to drink that day. And when I stopped drinking, that's what it felt like! But I realized after some time that it was more a matter of time and that alcohol will always matter. I just wasn't defined by it anymore. That, my friend, is worth just about anything in the world. It's indifference. I didn't want it, didn't think about it and wasn't defined by it.

But that's changed for me. Because alcoholism just gets worse, and even though I could compare myself out of the worst of the war stories, it's a decade plus later and I'm worse than where I started in many ways. (I've still never had too many terrible experiences people talk about in the rooms, thank all that matters, and knock wood.)

NE, I read a lot of your posts. But if it was working before, why did you stop and are starting over?

It's a longish story and I'm a longish storyteller. I went back to school for nursing. I was scared that they would test me. (*sigh. so much we didn't know back then and so much ridiculousness.) Mostly, I thought I was good forever. Grandma died, dog (the one who still holds my heart) died, other things.

But mostly, I'll repeat, I thought I was good. An occasional drink. A drunk here and there. I stopped exercising, which for me, though I didn't know it, was a huge part of my recovery.

I was studying ALL THE TIME, alone and isolated and while I was still active online here and with another website, I was losing the plot. It happens. Relapse is literally the definition of addiction.

Arrogance, ignorance, impatience. And inactivity.

As I've keep reading the SE seem pretty extreme and it's starting to scare me away. I still want to try, but I only see a handful that succeed and they are common posters. I'm not seeing thousands of people here praising it and being successful.

The SEs can be brutal. But they don't have to be. It's a combination of things. I've experienced most of them, I think, because I have no self-control. ha. Lots of things matter. Your age, how much and for how long you've been drinking, blah, blah, blah. We don't really know. I'll get back to that later.

So, here's my list for you.

1. Eat before taking a pill.
2. Take very small doses at first.
3. Go up slowly
4. Don't miss a dose once you've established a routine
5. Do all the things they tell you (or told me) to do in rehab--create a routine, go to bed and wake up at the same time every day. Take some B vitamins (like A LOT of them) walk or exercise or whatever.
6. Be grateful for something. This sucks, I know. lol. One of my counselors challenged us to come up with 5 NEW THINGS to be grateful for everyday. This is also not part of the baclofen protocol, and I know @terryk and many others are rolling their eyes at me. But I believe in that hoodoo, hippy-girl shit and so pfffft. Not that I do it. But I did spend an inordinate amount of money on cyber Monday (again, shush you peeps who judge) and it included a hand-crocheted poof thing I can sit on to meditate. Maybe it'll help me meditate if I look at it judging me everyday.

Back to baclofen. It's not a dangerous medication. The hangovers, holy hell, they can suck. And they've made me quit balcofen, not booze, before. The irony.
And the dreams! If you take too much, or if you're sensitive to such things. I've woken up from a dream absolutely convinced it was real. Recently! They're pretty fun, if you know you're not losing your mind.

Hmmmm. Am I making this worse or better? I have baclofen horror stories I love to share, but mostly that's because I'll gobble the pills like they should work tomorrow. (We used to wonder about that. Trust me. Doesn't fucking work.)

I want to qualify something here, because I'm being awfully wordy and feeling defensive. Pills aren't my thing. Before baclofen, I believed that benadryl and aspirin could and should cure just about anything. (which is true. To a point. Then let's let medicine and the professionals do their thing. Anyway.) I've experimented with other drugs, but alcohol is my one and only true love.

So I want to make two points before I finally move on.

One is that I have been here for a long time, and written a lot. And there are people who may read this and so some of what I write is tongue-in-cheek, written for them. Because I frustrated a lot of people with my inability to stick to a schedule, try to rush things, etc. You get the point. The truth is, they're all so tired of my endless rambling they won't have read this far, which is why I'm going to emphasize the next point.

And now I've fucking forgotten it. Dammit. Had to let the dog in, get a glass, and that's all it takes.

well, whatever it was, you didn't need to hear it or I would remember.

These are the thoughts that I just got cold feet. But I still want to try

I totally understand. It took me a full year of lurking, then several months of participating, before I jumped on the bandwagon. But I'm tenacious.

Oh wait. One last thing. Baclofen isn't a panacea. It's as close as I've gotten to one, though. And if you have some version of alcoholism, and since I'm gonna guess that you do because you're in a dead website looking for answers for alcoholism, there aren't ANY easy answers. None. And whether or not you choose to take baclofen, keep taking it, find answers here or elsewhere, Just Keep Trying. And I got your back on that one, too.

[Mulburry]

Re: New here. Is this place dead? "baclofen"

Hi Stevo and NE, I did get my Bac. The problem is I am still drinking and when I tried to take Bac and drink the hangover was SOOO much worse. I'm not sure I can do both at the same time. I think I would have to take a break and stop drinking and try Bac sober.

I've never tried Bac, but I wonder if it could be used as a secondary anti-craving type medication? The same way something like acamprosate or gabapentin is sometimes used post-detox to try to curb cravings and relapse.

[Stevo]

Re: New here. Is this place dead? "baclofen"

[MENTION=24679]Mulburry[/MENTION], When I got out of detox last time they gave me a prescription for acamprosate, I had asked for bac but they were not allowed to do this. I went home and continued drinking as I normally would and took the pills prescribed. I saw my doctor at the end of the week, told him what was happening and he told me acamprosate will only work if I was not drinking at all. I told him I had asked for bac but they did not prescribe it. He told me to immediately stop taking the acamprosate and wrote me a prescription for baclofen.

AOD organisations are far from well informed when it comes to what works for AUD and are constrained by many legal boundaries, they love pretending they are the experts in the field yet their scope is a small spectrum. This is what I have found anyway. They seem to be stuck in a world of 12 step fellowship thinking and prescribing naltrexone and acamprosate, it's all they have at their disposal. A world of white knuckling addiction is the best they know to offer here in Australia anyway.

This is by design, as I said to you in a previous post. Big Pharma have suppressed the benefits of baclofen as it is out of patent and now is considered a generic, they can't make any money from it. If they could there would be double blind randomised trials already done to death to prove the efficacy of bac. There are a few, but nowhere near as many as there should be, especially with High Dose Baclofen due to the fact they can't capitalise on it. I have heard over the years Big Pharma are trying to tweak baclofen to create a hybrid which can be patented and marketed with a profit but haven't heard anything about this recently.

Gabapentin from my understanding is used by AOD orgs. as an alternative but I believe they've missed a vital point. Baclofen works on the GABAb receptor which is what is needed, whilst gabapentin works on the GABAa receptor. I suspect they have made this mistake because the letters GABA are in the name without fully understanding. There are far more informed people who can correct me if I'm wrong about this or expand on my layman's interpretation. I once had an AOD counsellor suggest to me to go to a health food shop and buy GABA as a supplement to curb my drinking. Gabapentin also comes with some pretty hardcore SE's from what I've read on here making it hard for people to continue with even in the early days.

For me, bac is the only thing that has worked. I don't hold to outdated fellowship ideals and bac creates indifference, therefore no need to white knuckle it or count days. I spent many years around 12 step fellowships and the idea of counting days, years and decades seems insanely ridiculous to me now. Most of the older sober members hold their time sober as a shining light of the wonders of working 'The Program', what I found is most of the older sober members were far from good examples of sobriety and were more good examples of what not to do. They are so beholden to their precious fellowship, they can't possibly see any other option and will openly mock and ridicule it, if they can white knuckle it for 20 years everyone else has to too sort of mentality. Yes they're grateful, but yes there were no other options when they started...and yes they are insanely indoctrinated into a cultish way of thinking about dealing with AL and other drugs. Seriously dude, these older sobers are more insane than when they started in my observations.

I suspect what I have just typed will be frowned upon in here by many but it is what it is.

I apologise to anyone I may offend with a post like this, my opinions about anything other than bac were formed through reading posts on MWO or personal experience with AOD specialists, 12 Step Fellowships and the latter I had extensive education in. It took me ages to unindoctrinate myself from the toxic thinking formed in the rooms and meetings, I was once the indoctrinated too.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Re: New here. Is this place dead? "baclofen"

And, so, johaven, what's news?

[Mulburry]

Re: New here. Is this place dead? "baclofen"

@Mulburry, When I got out of detox last time they gave me a prescription for acamprosate, I had asked for bac but they were not allowed to do this. I went home and continued drinking as I normally would and took the pills prescribed. I saw my doctor at the end of the week, told him what was happening and he told me acamprosate will only work if I was not drinking at all. I told him I had asked for bac but they did not prescribe it. He told me to immediately stop taking the acamprosate and wrote me a prescription for baclofen.

I tried acamprosate (post-detox) but always gave me anxiety on the come up, maybe over time it would have helped/worked, but I just couldn't handle it in that state (I needed something to curb anxiety, lol). But apparently it does work for some people. But ya based on what Johaven was saying, that he might want to quit drinking first and then use back to stay quit, I know it's not mainstream but I wonder if Bac is ever used like that, seems to me like it could be effective that way too.

Gabapentin from my understanding is used by AOD orgs. as an alternative but I believe they've missed a vital point. Baclofen works on the GABAb receptor which is what is needed, whilst gabapentin works on the GABAa receptor.

Ya, one of the reasons I was hesitant to take gabapentin (did try it a couple times) is because it is also quite physically addictive (which makes sense since it also targets GABA-A like alcohol). I didn't really want to go from one substance to another and then have to deal with coming off that all over again.

I also, would not be at all surprised if big pharma influence was keeping bac from being more known/used. I also feel like traditional doctors/addictions people really don't like the idea of people still drinking and using meds at the same time (except for once that make Al not work). There is a very strong bias against that.

For me, bac is the only thing that has worked. I don't hold to outdated fellowship ideals and bac creates indifference, therefore no need to white knuckle it or count days. I spent many years around 12 step fellowships and the idea of counting days, years and decades seems insanely ridiculous to me now. Most of the older sober members hold their time sober as a shining light of the wonders of working 'The Program', what I found is most of the older sober members were far from good examples of sobriety and were more good examples of what not to do. They are so beholden to their precious fellowship, they can't possibly see any other option and will openly mock and ridicule it, if they can white knuckle it for 20 years everyone else has to too sort of mentality. Yes they're grateful, but yes there were no other options when they started...and yes they are insanely indoctrinated into a cultish way of thinking about dealing with AL and other drugs. Seriously dude, these older sobers are more insane than when they started in my observations.

I agree about 12 step programs, they were definitely not for me. But if they work for some people than that's great for them.

I am actually "white knuckling" it, and well over a year now. I am doing it because Al was absolutely destroying my health and mental health, and I just didn't have a choice really. I'd still recommend it to people struggling with Al, because I've experienced first hand how destructive it can be. That being said, I also realize it's not that easy, and I never would have been able to do this ten years ago. So appreciate that some people need to find alternate ways (like bac) that work for them.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Re: New here. Is this place dead? "baclofen"

Ya, one of the reasons I was hesitant to take gabapentin (did try it a couple times) is because it is also quite physically addictive (which makes sense since it also targets GABA-A like alcohol). I didn't really want to go from one substance to another and then have to deal with coming off that all over again.

Heya. So I think this is a very common misconception about gabapentin/Neurontin. It was initially developed to help with nerve pain. And I take it for that after back surgery.

It's actually a fascinating medication, with a lot of off-label uses, including addiction, depression, anxiety, and even more fascinating, it's been found to help people with eating disorders.

Another interesting fact, the company that originally developed it (Pfizer? I can't remember now) lost THE largest law suit in history (at that time) because their pharma reps were pushing doctors to use it off label without accurate research. It even changed laws in the US about what pharma reps were allowed to do in order to "push" drugs.

Ironically, decades later, it turns out it does have all of these interesting and effective off label uses. It's kind of a wonder drug.

And it's definitely not addictive and doesn't have a very high potential for abuse, though I heard while I was in rehab that people combine it other drugs (cocaine, I think? can't remember that, either. lol.) for a better high.

That said, like baclofen and many other medications, regular use leads to dependence (just like most ADs and most diabetes and blood pressure meds, to name just a few.) You can't, or shouldn't, abruptly stop taking it. I definitely experienced withdrawal symptoms when I stopped abruptly after being on a high dose right after surgery. Headaches, insomnia, some twitchiness. Uncomfortable, but not life threatening. And if I take too much it makes me wonky. So I'm not suggesting it should be taken lightly! It's definitely a powerful medication. Just not addictive or necessarily bad. Unfortunately it didn't work for me in terms of alcohol, obviously. But it really helps with nerve pain in my legs, and for a friend of mine with anxiety and anorexia.

ETA that I agree about the difference between bac and gabapentin and the receptor thing. Truth is, though, that we don't really know how either of them works or why. But since I have actually experienced both reduced drinking and complete indifference with baclofen, and so did my husband, I can personally attest to the fact that it works.

[Mulburry]

Re: New here. Is this place dead? "baclofen"

Heya. So I think this is a very common misconception about gabapentin/Neurontin. It was initially developed to help with nerve pain. And I take it for that after back surgery.

I'm not sure exactly what misconception you're referring to? I think there's been some miscommunication in the language being used; when I say "physically addictive" what I'm referring to is "dependence", which you also referred to later in your post. For someone with highly adapted and sensitized Gaba-A receptors, I wanted to shed the dependence on Gabaergic substances, instead of just switching from one substance to another, and then deal with the nightmare of withdrawals coming off the second substance eventually. To me it felt like it would be just delaying the inevitable pain (I had really hoped acamprosate would help/work because it has a novel mechanism of action, but it didn't). Now that doesn't mean gabapentin can't be useful for some people and for various other medical conditions, but like you say, it's good to be aware of it's dependence factor, especially for people with AUD. And ya I was speculating that because it affects gaba-b the cross tolerance/depends between Al and Bac might not be the same/as bad, as that between Al and gabapentin. Finally, I'll add that alcohol is sooooo bad for your health, I'm sure it's much better to be on some of these drugs we're talking about, even if they create a dependence, than to be on Al.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Re: New here. Is this place dead? "baclofen"

when I say "physically addictive" what I'm referring to is "dependence",

I gotcha. The thing is, there's a real and significant difference between addiction and dependence.

Addiction, as applied to alcoholism and drug addiction, is, "chronic, misuse, RELAPSING...despite adverse consequences." Emphasis mine, and you can find that definition anywhere that is referring to the mental illness as opposed to dependence. Sadly, Merriam and all the other dictionaries don't make the differentiation, but we should and need to.

We develop dependence on almost all medications, but especially brain-chemistry-altering medications, if we take them long enough. For some meds, that's weeks. For some it's months. And for some people, getting off of those medications, whether it's for diabetes or for depression, the withdrawals can be life-altering.

But addictive substances are the ones that compel the user to choose the substance over better decisions. So, for instance, it's really rare to find someone willing or wanting to take their anti-depressive medications off label, because they feel compelled to do it. Ditto diabetic meds. In fact, it's just the opposite. In fact, when those medications make them feel uncomfortable, they stop taking them. (Unfortunately, since they save lives.)

But addictive meds/drugs? We take them despite the fact that there are negative repercussions and they usually make us feel lousy, in the moment if we've been at it long enough. After the fact, for almost all of us. Why would we want to give them up if it didn't suck that we were compelled to take something against our well-being???

Man, I'm going to have to work on a two sentence version of what I've written.

So gabapentin/Neurontin is not addictive. It doesn't cause you to want to take a bunch of it, despite negative consequences. (except, perhaps, what I heard in rehab, about adding it to other street drugs. But rehab gossip is tantamount to believing in...hayzeus, anything. I swear, it's like the telephone game times 1000.)

Finally, I'll add that alcohol is sooooo bad for your health, I'm sure it's much better to be on some of these drugs we're talking about, even if they create a dependence, than to be on Al.

The most addictive drug, and the most harmful, is nicotine.
The second most harmful is alcohol.
The difference between alcohol and street drugs is, among other things, the danger. Smokers and alcoholics can and do live a long time, suffering. Most of what we know of as street drugs, especially since the vast majority are now laced with fentanyl, are deadly. People don't live very long when they start down that road. But it's not because the drugs are more addictive. They're more deadly, more quickly. Which is tragic. I've met so many people who were getting "medications" off the street because they couldn't get them anywhere else and they found out they had been taking fentanyl only after their drug analysis came back positive for it.

[johaven1024]

Re: New here. Is this place dead? "baclofen"

This last week I went 3 AF days because of work (not in a row). I'm trying to go on a sober streak and take my Bac because if I drink on Bac I will get a wicked hangover and the last one was too much for me. It's hard to get a sober streak going though. It's like a catch 22. My initial thought was take Bac, continue the drinks at the same time and work my way up and kill the cravings. I thought my hangovers would be normal hangovers as I did this. I was wrong. And yes, I started low...5mg 3 times in one day. Any suggestions are welcomed

[Stevo]

Re: New here. Is this place dead? "baclofen"

Starting low is a good idea [MENTION=24738]johaven1024[/MENTION],

I would be adding 5 mg every 3 days, you are only at the beginning and it will take time. Hopefully you will start to see a change in your drinking sooner rather than later

Congrats on AF days and am looking forward to reading and communicating more about your journey.

Cheers,

Steve.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Re: New here. Is this place dead? "baclofen"

Congratulations on 3 AF days!

One of the things I learned when I started to read my progress thread from 2010 is that I started on 5 mg per day. That shocked me! ( https://www.mywayout.org/community/m...html#post42777 )

A couple of things about that. I started baclofen for the first time in late 2009 or early 2010. I know that I tried it three times before I started that progress thread and gave up each time. But kept reading, and researching, and kept coming back to it as the right option for me.

I was, and still am, really lousy about sticking with a schedule. Not just about medications. It's just not my nature. (So frustrating, but I am who I am.)

But the interesting thing to me now is that I started this go round with 20mg, because I'm not scared of the SEs and I feel like I've been through it all before. But as I read through my old thread, and read the posts of the people that I know are still successful because I knew them then, and know them now, I realize that I've once again been foolish.

Low, slow and steady.
Consistency.

It's a bad idea to take some time off of baclofen, or to lower the dose, because the SEs are too hard to deal with, or it doesn't seem to be working, or whatever rationale/reason. It's much better to just titrate up slowly and back off if you take an extra 5mg one day and find it too much to deal with.

Shame and blame are great ways to undermine everything.

Good to hear from you. Take good care.

[guardian]

Re: New here. Is this place dead? "baclofen"

But ya based on what Johaven was saying, that he might want to quit drinking first and then use back to stay quit, I know it's not mainstream but I wonder if Bac is ever used like that, seems to me like it could be effective that way too.

[MENTION=24679]Mulburry[/MENTION] I was alcohol free the most recent time I used baclofen for craving and indifference. I did need to work up to a much higher dose, but that could be for other reasons. My drinking had progressed significantly, for instance. In any case, it worked. I did not work with a doctor or NP. I'm under the impression that most prescribers are hesitant to prescribe anything unless the person simply can't stop. But I've only spoken to a few in my quest for papers for my pills.