Trying to become Real before I become too loose in the joints and shabby

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Re: Trying to become Real before I become too loose in the joints and shabby

@Ne/Neva Eva

You're the one who suggested that I write more.

OH YAY! a reason to love on me from both of us.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Re: Trying to become Real before I become too loose in the joints and shabby

I'm on a quadruple.

I love the poets.

[guardian]

Re: Trying to become Real before I become too loose in the joints and shabby

So much of doctrine is in the blame/shame game. I really dislike that. Because I think it wounds so many of us that are already wounded. Don't plant thoughts in my head about how horrible I am, and leave me no option but to not only give up the only thing that's worked to quiet those voices, but also to accept blame? or become a victim? There has to be some middle ground. That said, I haven't found CBT to be particularly helpful either.

I’m just there for friendships and connection. I’m not a program person. Even if I had a strong connection with a higher power (in the conventional meaning), I would never be religious. There is a positivity and a hope there (at least in many meetings), and I do believe in the spirit of the 12th step – that there aren’t many better ways to get “outside of yourself” than to LISTEN to someone else’s experiences, and to offer up your own to let them know they aren’t alone and show what may have worked for you. It happened to me last night. A guy, Kyle, spoke up again at the end and said that he had been going through (6 months ago) something very, very similar to me – divorce, ex moving on despite his efforts at recovery, young child, no trust over him with the child, courts, everything. He said that he had felt like he had been completely alone with it. He finished by saying that he hadn’t been attending as many meetings because he puts his son to bed every night and reads him a story. I held it together hearing it but I didn't make it far out the door before I broke down. I broke down again yesterday morning drafting this. It was powerful.

Reading The Sober Truth and having an authority put in writing all the things that I felt were wrong with AA (to a “T”) put the final nail in the coffin of me feeling guilty that I wasn’t getting it. Now I can walk in with a free heart.

Back to your comment that I quoted. I loved what you wrote, up until that last part. I'm no guru, but I've listened to enough of them to parrot them back to you. The lesson, I think, is that you allowed it. You didn't feel shame. You didn't feel entitled. And ffs, it wasn't wrong.

If I could feel without judgment for just one second, I'd be a guru. We all would. No lessons to be had.

That’s exactly what I mean – sorry that I wasn’t clearer.
For me the thoughts, many of them judgements bring the feelings to the surface. Then, instead of trying to calm myself and get to a state of peace because AA told me I’m a bad person if I don’t and I think I can skip straight to being Ekhart Tolle, I just allow it. I’m doing this alone or with a therapist.

That said. Are you growing away from what has kept you from being drunk for 4 years? I hate to be the voice the many people who told me, "I told you so" when things began to go haywire for me. But I hear their voices ringing daily. And I'm trying to get back to what worked for me for 4+ years, before a profound relapse and subsequent alcoholism-induced life.

AA, or therapy, or whatever combination of whatever worked for you for 4 years. But it wasn't specifically MWO. And it wasn't only baclofen. I don't remember your story, and it irritates me that much of our history on the meds threads has been erased, but you were here before me, and you got where you needed to be to deal with what you're going through without blame and shame or the bottom of a bottle. So rock on. Post about whatever you want. You're a vital connection for me right now.

So, thank you.

The not being a drunk thing is a given to me now. I will accept nothing less in my life. I think that I’m growing away from what made me try to be a better man for the last 4 years. Or I’m just growing. Maybe aging out or something lol. Carl Jung said that we feel deeply based upon how important a thing is to us. I’ve spent an enormous amount of time being cognizant of my thoughts – literally hundreds of hours of meditation – and, I still feel deeply about things, although they have shifted. I’m done feeling ashamed of that. I can work on behavior in the heat of the moment, but, frankly, and all things considered, I don’t think I’m doing to damned bad with that either.

[guardian]

Re: Trying to become Real before I become too loose in the joints and shabby

Why can't I edit my own post after 30 minutes? Ridiculous.

[DragonbytheSea]

Re: Trying to become Real before I become too loose in the joints and shabby

Ian said I do believe in the spirit of the 12th step – that there aren’t many better ways to get “outside of yourself” than to LISTEN to someone else’s experiences, and to offer up your own to let them know they aren’t alone and show what may have worked for you.

That is the value and power of AA, IMO. It is not a great place to sober up. It is a great place to connect, to momentarily bond, to hear voices other than my own, to break the isolation of addiction, if only for an hour or so. If you are lucky, maybe you find longer lasting friendship.

I did not find the sin & redemption atmosphere to be helpful. The thesis (lol) of AA and the work I do with CPTSD directly contradict. My mantra with CPTSD:

Most people are narcissistic automatons. They do not matter. Only you matter.

I stopped chewing on AA before "The Sober Truth" came out. I will add it my Kindle list.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Re: Trying to become Real before I become too loose in the joints and shabby

I'm relieved that you are comfortable with being sober. I don't really know how to write it better than that, because your words were more powerful than that, and it's clearly not particularly comfortable (life I mean) for you sometimes.

I think I'm very cautious/conscientious when people take for granted where they've been and the farther removed from my last drunk I got, I forgot how alcohol takes over. Hell, that happens to me every morning right now. Yesterday was one of the worst days in memory. And I remember it. lol But I was emotionally volatile and just kind of vibrating negatively. Not to be all woo-woo, but I was just over it. The day. The stuff going on. My husband's gd morning radio. (Poor guy. He couldn't breath right yesterday. He called me from work and asked if I was okay today. He wanted fair warning before he walked in the door. ha. That said, we know each other well enough and have personal spaces, so we just separate when one of us is in a mood. No drama there. Thank all that matters.)

I

Carl Jung said that we feel deeply based upon how important a thing is to us. I’ve spent an enormous amount of time being cognizant of my thoughts – literally hundreds of hours of meditation – and, I still feel deeply about things, although they have shifted. I’m done feeling ashamed of that. I can work on behavior in the heat of the moment, but, frankly, and all things considered, I don’t think I’m doing to damned bad with that either.

I really think I need to read Carl Jung. I've met so many people that I actually like who quote or refer to him. Well, people and books I've read, too, I guess. Jung doesn't come up a lot in casual conversation.

I'm also pretty sure I can't stand Eckhart Tolle. I read his books back when they were on Oprah's Book Club in 1200AD. But I was a kid. Read parts of them again over the years. Took The Power of No with me to the last two rehabs, read and highlighted and thought, and decided he had a psychotic breakdown and just removed himself from reality. I mean seriously. And I mean that kind of seriously. I'm glad he's doing well and happy and all, but I wonder if it's just because he's just completely removed from the human experience. Like something that would be treated with medications if he wasn't smart and apparently content.

The rule about editing posts happened in part because of the troll(s) but especially the sociopathic one. I find it frustrating, too. But I also remember when people could write something and then change or delete it anytime and ruin the whole thread, or make everything confusing as hell. Or worse. Back in those days, there were the original ownership and moderators (if at all) and it was the wild west. Well, I suppose original Reddit takes the prize for the wild west of the internet. We were the wild suburbs.

[guardian]

Re: Trying to become Real before I become too loose in the joints and shabby

Ian said I do believe in the spirit of the 12th step – that there aren’t many better ways to get “outside of yourself” than to LISTEN to someone else’s experiences, and to offer up your own to let them know they aren’t alone and show what may have worked for you.

That is the value and power of AA, IMO. It is not a great place to sober up. It is a great place to connect, to momentarily bond, to hear voices other than my own, to break the isolation of addiction, if only for an hour or so. If you are lucky, maybe you find longer lasting friendship.

I did not find the sin & redemption atmosphere to be helpful. The thesis (lol) of AA and the work I do with CPTSD directly contradict. My mantra with CPTSD:

Most people are narcissistic automatons. They do not matter. Only you matter.

I stopped chewing on AA before "The Sober Truth" came out. I will add it my Kindle list.

It's a good read. I think that he should have left it as a critique of the 12-step group and rehab model of recovery. He covers the available evidence of it's effectiveness (it isn't very effective), and does an excellent job breaking down the program itself and how it could be damaging in many cases. Of course, AA has picked up a lot that is outside of the book itself over the years, like sponsorship, ending meetings with prayer, sobriety chips, etc., and he does a great job covering these as well. There is a good bit about the history of the 12-step and rehab industry, and Bill W himself, that I wasn't aware of and found very interesting.


Where he fails, in my opinion, is his critique of the other ways in which we understand addiction. He critiques the behavioralist model (humans aren’t rats), the genetic predisposition model - says not one gene has proven anything; this is simply dishonest. There are at least a dozen specifically to do with alcohol. Book was written in 2014, so I’ll give him a bit of a pass there. But his thesis is that addiction is simply a behavior and that all that is entailed in “curing” it is to get to the bottom of what is causing people to use to get a feeling of control over their lives. I’m not saying that there isn’t a ton of truth to this, but he knocks down these other explanations using very weak logic and then supports the methods that he has made his career in using the same types of case studies and correlates that he did a good job of destroying when they were used to support AA and 12-step rehab.


I’ve mentioned that I’m familiar with Pete Walker’s work and CPTSD. Can you explain your mantra as it relates to CPTSD? I’m not sure I’m following.

[guardian]

Re: Trying to become Real before I become too loose in the joints and shabby

I'm relieved that you are comfortable with being sober. I don't really know how to write it better than that, because your words were more powerful than that, and it's clearly not particularly comfortable (life I mean) for you sometimes.

I think I'm very cautious/conscientious when people take for granted where they've been and the farther removed from my last drunk I got, I forgot how alcohol takes over. Hell, that happens to me every morning right now. Yesterday was one of the worst days in memory. And I remember it. lol But I was emotionally volatile and just kind of vibrating negatively. Not to be all woo-woo, but I was just over it. The day. The stuff going on. My husband's gd morning radio. (Poor guy. He couldn't breath right yesterday. He called me from work and asked if I was okay today. He wanted fair warning before he walked in the door. ha. That said, we know each other well enough and have personal spaces, so we just separate when one of us is in a mood. No drama there. Thank all that matters.)

I do remember the strong urge to continue drinking well past the point of “enough.” I remember thinking that I could go to bed and fall straight asleep but having the unbelievable urge to finish whatever was left. I’ve used cocaine many times as well, and the urge for me was similar. That’s the way that I drank from the very beginning. It was like I was always in competition with myself to see how much I could drink. Paradoxically, I did gain some control once I got into my late 20s through – well, getting a degree in accounting and realizing that it’s an assembly line for midwits. I took off again when I really felt like I had nothing to look forward to in my day. I fucking hate accounting, but I thought that if I got back to work in my career, and prove that I can provide and also be happy with it, that she’d see something she liked. I also wanted to move to where my son lives and provide for him no matter what happened between his mom and me. Just doing shit for other people.

I’ve taken a pretty in-depth career profile that included personality and intelligence testing. It wasn’t cheap. I didn’t learn a ton I didn’t already know, or suspect. Accounting is absolutely not for me. That’s my trauma career. That’s safe. Ideally, I’d be an architect or something with large-scope projects that require a lot of creative thinking. I took and iq test as a pre-teen and the employment profiling confirmed that I’m very, very smart and need to be working at a “post-doctoral level” in order to be challenged enough to be happy. Jesus Christ – I’m 42 fucking years old with CPTSD and being challenged means I could fail which means I’m worthless and everyone will hate me and I’ll die alone lol. It also told me that medicine would be a great choice. So I’ve decided to go back to school for nursing and take that through to a NP in mental health. Maybe. I don’t know – but I feel like it’s something that I could do until I die. Like it would give me a reason to live. Sorry for the digression, but I do think that my life choices help to explain my drinking.

I have drank on several occasions since getting “sober” with baclofen. There was never that urge to just keep going aside from peer pressure. I’ve had one situation come up (xmas eve) where I really just wanted to get fucked up – just black it out. But, aside from that, I guess I’ve learned, or am learning, that I need to love myself even when I am in pain – that is where my recovery will occur. Most of my thoughts of drinking now have to do with food pairings. Or just having a drink (one) with “the boys.”

I really think I need to read Carl Jung. I've met so many people that I actually like who quote or refer to him. Well, people and books I've read, too, I guess. Jung doesn't come up a lot in casual conversation.
I'm also pretty sure I can't stand Eckhart Tolle. I read his books back when they were on Oprah's Book Club in 1200AD. But I was a kid. Read parts of them again over the years. Took The Power of No with me to the last two rehabs, read and highlighted and thought, and decided he had a psychotic breakdown and just removed himself from reality. I mean seriously. And I mean that kind of seriously. I'm glad he's doing well and happy and all, but I wonder if it's just because he's just completely removed from the human experience. Like something that would be treated with medications if he wasn't smart and apparently content.

I haven’t read Jung, but I’ve read Rublin, Pete Walker, Nathaniel Branden, and others who are well-versed in him and cite him a lot.
I think you’re on to something with ET. He’s eminently quotable. Perfect for those like snippets people post passive-aggressively on Facebook like “The trick is caring about everyone without caring what they think.” BS – you don’t know what other people think, you only know what you think. Narcissistic gaslighting garbage.
But he’s very, very removed from the human experience.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Re: Trying to become Real before I become too loose in the joints and shabby

...I’m very, very smart and need to be working at a “post-doctoral level” in order to be challenged enough to be happy. Jesus Christ – I’m 42 fucking years old with CPTSD and being challenged means I could fail which means I’m worthless and everyone will hate me and I’ll die alone lol. It also told me that medicine would be a great choice. So I’ve decided to go back to school for nursing and take that through to a NP in mental health. Maybe. I don’t know – but I feel like it’s something that I could do until I die. Like it would give me a reason to live. Sorry for the digression, but I do think that my life choices help to explain my drinking.

Many of my 'life choices' were made when I was too young to be held accountable for them, especially given the destruction they've reaped on my adult opportunities. That's not to say I'm absolved of my adult (especially at my age) responsibilities. But the reasons... In a way, and after much therapy where I could only find nuggets (like what @DragonbytheSea said) until this last treatment center, where it sort of came together, it was like I was born cursed. Too sensitive. Too smart. etc. We have that in common, and much else.

I'm amused, but not surprised by our similarities. I was 41 when I got sober with bac and it took me a year or so of stops and starts, trial and error, to get there. That's when I decided to go to nursing school. I hope you choose a good one, or, on the other hand, one of the online ones that gives you the degree for a bunch of money. I went to the community college and then transferred to a university.

The reason I say that is that the system in place for teaching medicine, of any kind, is fubar. And not good for people like me, who might be too smart to manage life on it's terms and too stupid to just let it go. The first time my GPA dropped below a 4.0, I was DEVASTATED. As if it matters. I got the degree, don't have the license and haven't ever done anything with it. (Shame and guilt about that, for sure.) BUT the thing is, while I deplore the idea of doing anything in traditional nursing (and am AMAZED by the perseverance and good will of those people who are in that, especially in hospital med-surg units, which is my hell on earth) I really, really wanted to be a liaison between the patient and the medical world. All based on my experience with my treatment as a person with alcoholism who had to hide it in order to be treated humanely. And who didn't trust the medical community, or prescription medications, at all. (My opinion on the meds has changed dramatically. lol) I could wander down this path for a long time, but suffice it to say, the communication is important, but it's not the solution I thought it was. As we know, habits, especially addictive and destructive ones, particularly when resources are scarce, are nearly impossible to change. The diabetic living on disability or social security, which in my region is $700 A MONTH cannot afford baby spinach. Or greens year round. Or the things that make greens taste good. (Like bacon. ha.)

And life without salt (or some sugar) is kind of like living like Tolle. Definitely removed from society and not understanding the flavor and nuance of what it is to be human. Don't get me wrong, nutrition is my second biggest hurdle in this battle with alcoholism. I have no appetite, and when I do, it's just to stuff something into my stomach. But when a patient you know well loses his toe, then several more, has an abscess and then loses the foot... It's painful. I saw one ER nurse lose her shit because a patient she knew well was admitted again for diabetic ketoacidosis, and she was lecturing him about how it was only $4 for his Rx at Wxxmart. I get her frustration. But how's he going to get to wxxmart? Anyway, seriously best of luck to you. There's a ton of good to be done and money to be made. My mantra, not that I lived by it, was 'head down, eyes on the goal.' "The best is the enemy of the good." or whatever, is what it should have been. Nursing school had a direct and negative impact on my contented sobriety. In retrospect, I wish I'd paid one of the for profit schools and just gotten it done with and moved on. Unless you want to work in a hospital or clinical setting, this might be an idea. And also, trying it out as a CA or CNA. I didn't have so much as high school biology, so it was ALL completely foreign to me. Which my mind loved. I still look at my Anatomy and Physiology cards, occasionally. And I haven't even looked at all my "must read" notes from rehab last September. It's nice that when my husband complained of a pain in his groin-ish area the other night, I was like, "you have an inguinal hernia. Stop lifting shit. Call the doc on Monday." I don't know that I'm right, but it's not a wild guess based on google. So that's cool.

Now I'm babbling. Procrastinating, too. Or, it's not even procrastinating. I just... can't... care. Like, why vacuum? Why shower? You both, @guardian and @DragonbytheSea, are so far from where I am, that it makes me self conscious and that much closer to exploring my self pity online, which I've been harshly burned for before. (Sort of justifiably, though it came from the wrong woman's mouth. Or keyboard. Whatever.)

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Re: Trying to become Real before I become too loose in the joints and shabby

re. Eckhart Tolle. I listen to Jack Kornfield's podcast HeartWisdom as often as I let myself feel something. It's lovely. A life goal is to go to the retreat in Northern California, which I've hiked past. Which is kind of what I do with the information gleaned from stuff I listen to or read when I'm not abstinent. Walk right on by... sigh

Like you alluded to, there's only so much I can retain, and I feel like Kelly Bundy (maybe before your time?) on a game show... one thought in, one thought out, until I've forgotten my middle name.

I heard him, Kornfield, on someone else's podcast, I don't remember now. A celebrity-of-sorts no one's ever heard of, or she may be superfamous. I dunno. (surprise.) and she was all woo-woo. And he was all, yep. "But what's you're experience?" But completely without condescension and not in the usual therapy-speak, either. I wish I could remember it, because in that moment, I was totally making fun of her, and totally in awe of him. And then totally in awe that she would invite him, even though she didn't get real in the podcast. I mean, that's some spine. If your world consists of living really far removed from reality, and your lipstick shade matters to you, but you want to talk to a guru....

I'd do that. I want to do that. Both give a shit about lipstick AND put myself all the way out there by "interviewing" a guru and making myself that step closer to real. With lipstick.

ETA: oy. the point is, Tolle doesn't get any of that. He's just like, "don't listen to the voice in your mind." Which makes me think that if he hadn't been, in your words, quotable, he'd be another psychopath. I'm not promoting Buddhism and don't really want to practice it. But at least they acknowledge that the self-voice can't be extinguished. And if it is, I'd want to be far, far away from that person.

Also, accounting is for the birds. I've never known a happy accountant. And I used to bartend at the fancy end, so I knew a lot of unhappy ones. ha

[guardian]

Re: Trying to become Real before I become too loose in the joints and shabby

I'm lucky in that IU, where I got my degree, has a 16-month, accelerated nursing BSN program for those with an undergrad already. I'd be continuing on to the NP or DNP route so that maybe it can be my pleasure to be part of the FUBAR in medical education. I do love teaching. Ideally, I'd want to spend at least some of what's left of my career working with alcoholics in a treatment setting where I can prescribe baclofen. There'd need to be a physician on staff that would be amenable to it, obviously. Treatment would coincide with significant one-on-one therapy. There needs to be a new model for AUD treatment. Everything currently available would have done, and did, fuck-all for me. Baclofen and therapy were the only way at this point in my life. Would something else have worked eventually? Maybe. But I'm not interested in hitting any more rock-bottom than "I can't stop and I want to quit. I've lost too much and this isn't fun anymore." Most of us hit that pretty early.

I guess I think that, if I'm going to be changing careers it can't be just to make money or have better opportunities. There's money in what I do, but there is and will always be zero overlap between it and anything I give a shit about. Unless it's my own business, in which case, I know and will remember everything I'll ever need. Now get me the fuck out of this clown show.

You're right about our similarities. I had typed out, but then deleted, a long aside about alcoholics, aptitude, sensitivity, etc. I decided to discard it because I really don't know for sure that any of that is true necessarily. If I were to draw any generalities from the particular AA meetings that I attend, it would be that the average alcoholic is male, average-to-slightly-above-average intelligence, blue collar, and emotionally callous.

Nutrition is one of my intellectual passions. I love talking and reading about it.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Re: Trying to become Real before I become too loose in the joints and shabby

If I were to draw any generalities from the particular AA meetings that I attend, it would be that the average alcoholic is male, average-to-slightly-above-average intelligence, blue collar, and emotionally callous.

Nutrition is one of my intellectual passions. I love talking and reading about it.

Yep. AA meetings are for and about the average alcoholic being male, blue collar and smart or smart-ish. Kept me out of meetings, or worse, for a long time. You've read the anti-AA literature, and I'm so tired of that refrain when it's the only thing out there for the vast majority of us. Don't get me wrong. I was one of 'em. And part of it is was because I don't fit that definition in any way. I was in my early 20s when I went to my first meeting, I'm a woman, my superficial background would not indicate that I had a bottom that didn't include my...bottom. (I'm referring to the 13 step.)
And no one believed I was an alcoholic. Not even my sponsor, when I was in my 4th step, who encouraged me to do the "test" in the book. That did not work out well.

Written by white men, for white men in the 30s. Suffice to say, I'm glad things have moved forward. But I wouldn't change the Big Book if I could. Except to completely delete the "to the wives" chapter. What a waste of ink. I've found more in common with those original guys than I have with many of the people I've met in meetings. hmmmm. Now I'm getting worked up.

I'm not trying to be a billboard for my last treatment center, but at the very least, they acknowledge that nothing works. lol (very sad lol) Seriously. And the people they hire are in recovery of some sort. Because I have come to believe that, at least for some of us, maybe the vast majority, recovery is ongoing. And that abstinence is no guarantee, but relapse is guaranteed. AA literature says it, not so bluntly for those who have maintained sobriety long term, but it's there. It also says that they tried the 'hospitalization' model of treating people for alcoholism, along with an education center, all in the same building. Dismal failure.

There was a lecturer we had, a guy who is smart, who has published, and whom I respect, and I'd name if it wasn't in the context of a meeting, who said that fewer than 10% (at best) who walk in the door of a meeting are still sober after a year. (self reported) He also said that those of us in the room are more likely, 10% more likely! to stay sober for a year. That breaks down to... dismal failure. But what else is there? We don't have the solutions. We only have questions. The treatment center is run by two CEOs, one of whom lectured regularly, and is an MD. When I asked him wtf we're supposed to do if some of us are born without the brain receptors, or they've been permanently altered his answer was... find something.

AA works when it's a common community. That fills the void. And for some, exercise, especially extreme exercise. (that's what did it for me, I'm convinced, baclofen helped get me there, and so did Lo0p and this community.) Religion. Not spirituality, the way AA talks about it. If you read the (ETA: science based) literature, it's kind of in that order.

Community, exercise, religion, with a capital R. Medications? As devout a baclofenite as I am, I have many, many questions. And since you might be interested, and you're looking to do your own research... The French government (where Dr. Ameisen was from and where he died) authorized High Dose Baclofen for treatment and then stopped it before the year was up.

I can't remember if you've taken HDB, because...my brain. I think @DragonbytheSea said 80mg... since it's only the three of us, for the moment, (@stevo is around, I think and hope. would love your input.) not considering some of the old timers who might not have any experience with this, I'd like some input.

[guardian]

Re: Trying to become Real before I become too loose in the joints and shabby

Is it religion, or is it people who are drawn to religion? Is it exercise, or is it the type of people who are disciplined enough to exercise? More studies are needed.

As far as the French experiment goes, what a shit-show. IIRC, they authorized 80mgs., which is not HDB. Also the treatment group had a higher mortality rate, but they allowed people to self-administer. Crazy. I'm not sure much can be made of it.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Re: Trying to become Real before I become too loose in the joints and shabby

lololol I hear ya.

something keeps ringing around my head: if you haven't lost it, you will. I'm pretty much terrified.

You've been around long enough to see through things, right? What works? It isn't a single medication. It isn't a single circumstance. It isn't a burning desire. There are many things I haven't tried, though back when I started here, I thought I'd tried them all. My desperation was real. Then and, maybe even more, now.

I can assure you that I'm not drawn to exercise. But holy all that matters, I rocked the world. It wasn't a body thing. It was an existential thing. That's such bull shit, I had to look it up. But I've never been more content than when I was lifting weights, and I've heard it from others. And ffs, don't get all kinds of ideas in your head about what that looks like. I went from lifting the tiny pink things to the 'boy room'. My biceps were to die for, without instagr$$. I wasn't ripped. I never want to see my abs muscles. Food is good. Peanut butter and jelly sandwiches! (FTR, part of the reason I'm writing this is because it helped me to get free and feel amazing, but I've met sooo many women in life, in the rooms, in rehab, that struggle with this stuff. I only found freedom in exercise. But I started, and am starting again, so slowly, it's hard to keep doing.) (Weights in the guest room, here I come. Or I'll be ashamed that it took me a year to get there. whatever)

Nutrition? I learned much on here, and more since. I think it's key, and I'm lacking in every way, when I'm drinking. But who isn't? Greens. That's the only consistency. And its the only thing that makes both my body work, and my mind work. I didn't eat anything green today.

You know the pink cloud? I experienced that early, when I was in my twenties and new to AA, and people cautioned me about it. I've been high on sobriety more than once. I've experienced spiritual experiences, here on MWO, in the rooms, and in moments. Especially, I have to say, in the rooms. There's something about that communion I've not felt anywhere else. Unfortunately, there's no way to be anonymous where I am. I don't mean I'm guarding my anonymity. IDGAF. I mean, with 7 meetings in a day, I'm either still the drunk to be saved or still the hopeless drunk. No middle ground.

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Re: Trying to become Real before I become too loose in the joints and shabby

As far as the French experiment goes, what a shit-show. IIRC, they authorized 80mgs., which is not HDB. Also the treatment group had a higher mortality rate, but they allowed people to self-administer. Crazy. I'm not sure much can be made of it.

I wandered way off topic. And no, I think they authorized HDB. Even if they didn't, why didn't they?

Not a shit show. It's worth investigating with an open mind. And, if you speak french or have the willingness to reach out to their forum, I'll dig up any info I know and relay it to you. But in the meantime, know that I've done a lot of research about this, and know people who have done more. I'm not discouraging you! On the contrary, despite my meanderings, the goal is to find some answers, and, maybe, some solutions.