Thoughts on Baclofen's anti-craving mechanism

[RedThread12]

Thoughts on Baclofen's anti-craving mechanism

Betcha' a few shares of PL that I said it before you did! I noticed this back in the early 80's. I'm not only ancient, I'm observant .
Brilliant minds, etc., etc., . . . :h

[bleep]

Thoughts on Baclofen's anti-craving mechanism

Actually, Arthur C. Clarke got the drop on both of you...

Clarke's three laws - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Rule number 3.

[RedThread12]

Thoughts on Baclofen's anti-craving mechanism

Greg, thanks for checking in and chiming in.

So what's your non-professional opinion regarding the use of baclofen for titrating down (and, hopefully off) of methadone? I've been in direct contact with a man who used it successfully to come completely off suboxone. I really don't know nuthin' 'bout nuthin' when it comes to the opiate realm. I do know someone who has lived in that world for longer than he wants. He is currently taking 7 mg of methadone/day (has to show up at the clinic at 9 am every morning); but still craving and barely managing. He says coming off heroin is a walk in the park compared to stopping methadone.

And anyone else who has any experience, or any ideas about this topic??? I'm all ears (and heart). If it's not appropriate for this board, please PM me and we can communicate via email.

[RedThread12]

Thoughts on Baclofen's anti-craving mechanism

Dang! On one hand. I am not the first to observe.

Awesome! On the other hand. i am not the first to observe.

(And, as I noted . . . brilliant minds, thinking, umm . . . similarly :-)).

Not bad company.

Hey, Bleep!!

[COSGringo]

Thoughts on Baclofen's anti-craving mechanism

Time for me to up my dose again I guess. Failing big time this last week. Ooooh waiting 'till after work. Back to about 4-6 drinks.

So disappointed. Can't go back to group. Won't. Just up the dose?

Guess I could start trying harder again but wtf happened?

[Greg]

Thoughts on Baclofen's anti-craving mechanism

RedThread12;1455870 wrote: Greg, thanks for checking in and chiming in.

So what's your non-professional opinion regarding the use of baclofen for titrating down (and, hopefully off) of methadone? I've been in direct contact with a man who used it successfully to come completely off suboxone. I really don't know nuthin' 'bout nuthin' when it comes to the opiate realm. I do know someone who has lived in that world for longer than he wants. He is currently taking 7 mg of methadone/day (has to show up at the clinic at 9 am every morning); but still craving and barely managing. He says coming off heroin is a walk in the park compared to stopping methadone.

And anyone else who has any experience, or any ideas about this topic??? I'm all ears (and heart). If it's not appropriate for this board, please PM me and we can communicate via email.

Glad to be here, and sober thankfully. I hope everyone else is doing well...I haven't been here in ages.

Sorry but I honestly can't say how well baclofen would work for coming off methadone, although Dr Ameisen first heard about it reducing cocaine cravings. It doesn't do anything at opioid receptors from what I know, but its indirect actions on neurotransmitters could be helpful. I'm not a regular baclofen user, and haven't read all of the things written about it, but I'm sure others here will be able to help you more. I am definitely not as knowledgeable about baclofen as some of the other forum members here.

Another source of anecdotal information could be a heroin forum, if there is one, or maybe a general drugs forum. I will also ask my addiction specialist in Sydney about this, as he often hears of different/unusual treatment ideas.

[RedThread12]

Thoughts on Baclofen's anti-craving mechanism

Thanks Greg. And I'm delighted to read that you're "doing well," regarding evil alcohol. If you come across any further info, please let me know. I have looked, briefly, at some of those forums. I'm kind of surprised at how often baclofen is mentioned. I'm just beginning to "really" apply myself to understanding the actual possibilities. If I just had all the time I spend looking for my mobile phone and my keys, I would have a parallel life in which I could do this justice!

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Thoughts on Baclofen's anti-craving mechanism

Redt, There's a guy that bleep knows that got off of methadone w bac. His thread is here somewhere. I don't remember his username, but bleep will.

Greg, it is so great to hear that you are sober! When you have a minute I hope you'll fill in the details a little bit. Last I remember you had given up on the prospect of being seen by (or getting help from) the doc from the hospital who used a whole concoction of meds. So what happened after you got to Sydney?

Greg;1455809 wrote:
So, while baclofen definitely works for alcohol dependence, its action is somewhat different in nature to that of a direct substitute...perhaps it does indirectly substitute for some of alcohol's effects though, in particular the calming effect.
Thank you for your thoughts. I particularly like the part about the combination of drugs that would be needed to substitute for alcohol. Funny that. I think, too, that it's helped me answer my own question...Baclofen is perhaps more akin to an antidepressant than a substitute for an actual drug. (This is just for the purpose of being able to explain it to my friend(s) rather than understanding the exact mechanisms of it.)

Just as an aside, I don't know that I would consider baclofen particularly calming. Not in the sense that benzos are calming. Would you? I know there are some people who take it because it helps them sleep, or when they're feeling anxious, but that wasn't my experience even back in the beginning. Especially back in the beginning!

COSGringo;1455895 wrote: Time for me to up my dose again I guess. Failing big time this last week. Ooooh waiting 'till after work. Back to about 4-6 drinks.

So disappointed. Can't go back to group. Won't. Just up the dose?

Guess I could start trying harder again but wtf happened?

Cos, what's going on? You ok?

[RedThread12]

Thoughts on Baclofen's anti-craving mechanism

Thanks, Ne.

I'll PM Bleep. To date, the use of baclofen for addictions other than alcohol is "off-topic," and I don't want to distract. This is where, and baclofen is how, my life is saved. That said, your question regarding specifically HOW bac works is so timely and important - in my world, at least. Like I said earlier . . . I could probably figure a lot of this out, if I didn't have to spend so much time looking for my mobile and my keys :h

[Cassander]

Thoughts on Baclofen's anti-craving mechanism

Ne/Neva Eva;1456390 wrote:

Just as an aside, I don't know that I would consider baclofen particularly calming. Not in the sense that benzos are calming. Would you? I know there are some people who take it because it helps them sleep, or when they're feeling anxious, but that wasn't my experience even back in the beginning. Especially back in the beginning!

Hi Ne

This might be splitting hairs but many people feel that baclofen relieves anxiety and thus may be said to be calming...even you have said this!

See: https://www.mywayout.org/community/f2...ety-50827.html


Best,

Cassander

[Ne/Neva Eva]

Thoughts on Baclofen's anti-craving mechanism

Cassander;1456482 wrote: Hi Ne

This might be splitting hairs but many people feel that baclofen relieves anxiety and thus may be said to be calming...even you have said this!

I know. Even as I wrote it, I thought I should explain it more. I didn't for the sake of brevity. Plus I don't know how to describe it.

I wasn't one of the people for whom taking baclofen was calming in that it immediately relieves anxiety in the way a benzo does. In fact, I don't really think it works like that.

It's more that my brain was rewired. I don't have the same (exaggerated?) reactions to external stimuli that I used to. Or the internal ones either.

Or maybe I'm just not familiar enough with the way the 'calming' drugs like benzos make someone feel and it is more similar than I think? I don't think so though.

[Greg]

Thoughts on Baclofen's anti-craving mechanism

Ne/Neva Eva;1456390 wrote: Greg, it is so great to hear that you are sober! When you have a minute I hope you'll fill in the details a little bit. Last I remember you had given up on the prospect of being seen by (or getting help from) the doc from the hospital who used a whole concoction of meds. So what happened after you got to Sydney?



Thank you for your thoughts. I particularly like the part about the combination of drugs that would be needed to substitute for alcohol. Funny that. I think, too, that it's helped me answer my own question...Baclofen is perhaps more akin to an antidepressant than a substitute for an actual drug. (This is just for the purpose of being able to explain it to my friend(s) rather than understanding the exact mechanisms of it.)

Just as an aside, I don't know that I would consider baclofen particularly calming. Not in the sense that benzos are calming. Would you? I know there are some people who take it because it helps them sleep, or when they're feeling anxious, but that wasn't my experience even back in the beginning. Especially back in the beginning!

Hi Ne, sorry that I forgot to get back here and give an update. Basically I gave up on that hospital professor's treatment method towards the end of last year, when it became obvious that no doctor in Sydney was likely to prescribe the required medications. They all thought it was too risky and bold, with one saying how much he dislikes "poly-pharmacy". If I really had no other choice I could have stayed in Melbourne for a week or two and started on it, but the waiting list would have been months long by the sound of it.

I am on Antabuse again at present, as its physical deterrent rules out drinking at night. Baclofen feels more like gabapentin or pregabalin (Lyrica) to me than it does to benzos, although it has insomnia rather than sleepiness as a side effect if I try to take too much late at night. It seems to have some calming effect, but not exactly the sedating effects of benzos, and I doubt that truly high doses would still have a calming effect on me.

I hope everything has been going well for you lately.

[COSGringo]

Thoughts on Baclofen's anti-craving mechanism

Ne/Neva Eva;1456390 wrote:
Cos, what's going on? You ok?

I'm hanging in there. Fell of the wagon there. Let's see how this week goes!
Thanks for asking.

[lostsole]

Thoughts on Baclofen's anti-craving mechanism

COSGringo, sound like maybe you should up our dosage. No fun I am sure but that might help.

[TexasAg]

Thoughts on Baclofen's anti-craving mechanism

Xadrian;1455465 wrote: Hi Ne,

Compare it with an air conditioning and a heating system that keep the temperature in a room at the right temperature. When it's too hot (dopamine, endorphin), the heating switches off and the air conditioner (GABA) switches on, causing the temperature to drop to a normal level.

The problem with alcohol is, that it is not only an agonist for GABA, but also for dopamine, endorphins and serotonin (Addiction: Alcohol's Effect on Neurotransmitters). This will spin those levels out of control and give a rewarding, pleasant feeling that makes the brain addicted eventually. Compare it to when you switch on the air conditioning (GABA) and the heating (endorphin, dopamine) at maximum at the same time, eventually overheating the compressor of the air conditioner, so the capacity of the air conditioner is also effected in a negative way.

Baclofen, on the contrary, is only an agonist for GABA(B), so it will reduce dopamine and endorphin levels and therefore it doesn't give a rewarding and pleasant feeling and consequently is not addicting. (You open the door of the room next to your room with the too warm air. This room has only an air conditoning (GABA) and no heating (endorphin, dopamine), so now the air conditioner of the other room helps the cripple air conditioner of your room, to get the temperature at a normal level)

Although science does not exactly know how baclofen works, my own experience is that drinking alcohol on baclofen eventually doesn't give the pleasant, rewarding feeling, just because the baclofen (which subtitutes for the GABA the brain can not produce enough anymore), will suppress dopamine and endorphin. (With the help of the air conditioner of the room next door, there's sufficient cooling capacity to prevent heating up your room).
This causes the switch.

Eventually, the heating is not being switched on so often (reducing or quitting alcohol) and the compressor of the air conditioner is not overheated that fast anymore, so you can shut the door to the other room a little bit (titrating down to the maintenance dose).

After that, it depends on how bad the air conditioner of your own room has been damaged (the capacity of the brain to restore its production of GABA) whether you can shut the door completely or have to leave it open a little (taking baclofen) for the rest of your life.


Does this comparisation with the heating/air conditioning help you to understand the principles?

Thanks X, this comparison helps a lot.

I have a question, is it possible to take too much bac. In other words, the air conditioner from the next room and you're room are not letting any heat.

I love being sober. But I've been struggling for a while on whether my non-heat (zest for life) is an SE and it'll pass like all the other SE's.

Cheers!