Moderating is so subjective!

[A Work in Progress]

Moderating is so subjective!

Yeah, you're right about the book. And, well, frankly, as I've said before... I think that the experience that RJ describes in her book is very, very unusual. As you will see if you hang out here for a while longer, it just doesn't seem to work that way for very many people... for whatever reason(s).

On the other hand, I think that the methods she came up with CAN and DO help people to overcome serious drinking problems.

As Nancy points out, "like butter" moderation, or moderation without feelings of deprivation, might very well depend on using anti-craving medications for the rest of one's life (and this assumes that one of those meds is actually helpful, and that it does not present serious problems in the way of side effects).

Not wanting to feel "deprived" is natural, of course! Whether it is realistic to hope for, expect, or insist on going through this experience without feelings of deprivation... that's another matter, entirely!

wip

[A Work in Progress]

Moderating is so subjective!

p.s., Peri, I just now figured out what your last sentence meant! Yes, you are right, I do advocate an attitude of "whatever it takes!"!!! And one of the things that that means, to me, is to be strong enough to tolerate feelings of discomfort... of deprivation... to get to the goals that mean so much to me!

One of the problems with alcoholic behavior is that we have learned to "medicate" feelings of discomfort, and so it takes some time to learn how to build up the emotional strength and emotion regulation skills to be able to get over that knee-jerk reaction that says: "I shouldn't have to feel this way!" or "I can't stand to feel this way!"

And: Whatever it takes to get through those uncomfortable feelings (feelings of being deprived of something we want), without hurting ourselves or anyone else, without drinking or drugging, is generally a good idea!

wip

[periwinkle]

Moderating is so subjective!

In my case I very well may stay on the topa the rest of my life if I continue to have the relief from migraines I am experiencing (see prior post). Even though I avoid known food triggers there are still things out of my control that cause them.

[nancy]

Moderating is so subjective!

Hi Periwinkle

I haven't read the book in a long time, but I thought one of the reasons RJ made the program for herself because she herself could not do a 30-day abstinence period required by some programs. Isn't that right? She may advise that but I don't think she did it. Her own program diminished her own appetite for alcohol.

It's true that a lot of people are not doing the program the way she outlined it. In my opinion, that is because some people do not want to take medication. Others tried it and found they could not tolerate it.

I haven't read too many accounts of people who said Topa did not work in terms of controlling cravings. And it seems to enable moderation, though in my opinion this comes at a high price of side effects, whereas abstinence has none.

Those who dont take medication struggle for what seems to be a long time with that old internal dialogue about drinking and relapses. You just need to read the board to find that out. Others really come to some sort of enlightened state where they genuinely enjoy sobriety and that is great. They dont want to trade their new happiness for the drinking.

In terms of you, if you can do the 30 day period, I think that's great. Detoxing is always good isn't it? It will give you confidence and help you learn new coping skills.

Nancy

[Lila]

Moderating is so subjective!

So, wip, you think RJ's experience was unusual? I have wondered about that. Like do many people follow her program, have success, and then just never feel the need to post here? I also wonder how many people do tolerate the topa very well, maybe more the ones who don't post here looking for other answers...

[periwinkle]

Moderating is so subjective!

nancy;461023 wrote:
I thought one of the reasons RJ made the program for herself because she herself could not do a 30-day abstinence period required by some programs. Isn't that right? She may advise that but I don't think she did it. Her own program diminished her own appetite for alcohol.

Yes, that's right Nancy. I had to go back and reread that after reading some posts about the 30 days here too. She said she couldn't do the 30 days AF some programs required. She was drinking moderately from day 1 when she started her program. [That's interesting because the day I started my kudzu from a local shop a couple weeks before I got the cds or topa and I had the same response. My cravings were gone and I was drinking moderately.]

Back to the book. I went on to reread and found where RJ now advises that people start with an AF period of 7, 14, up to 30 days. She also said that she herself now often does a 30 day AF period just to make sure she is still is still in control. Not sure if that is a direct quote or not, I didn't look it up for this post.

I decided that the 30 days would be right for me. I am learning so much about myself and my AL triggers. I am learning about inappropriate times for me to consider "moderate" drinking. And yes, I do feel in control right now. I realize that could change tomorrow and I am cautiously optimistic. I did have a couple very emotional days where I thought I was falling apart. I think the topa is working well for me at a low dose with minimal side effects. It is too bad that it doesn't work for all who would like for it to. I applaud those who choose abstinance too.

periwinkle

[A Work in Progress]

Moderating is so subjective!

Lila;461042 wrote: So, wip, you think RJ's experience was unusual? I have wondered about that. Like do many people follow her program, have success, and then just never feel the need to post here? I also wonder how many people do tolerate the topa very well, maybe more the ones who don't post here looking for other answers...

It's certainly possible that there is a significant number of people that we don't know about, who read the book, follow the program, never experience feelings of deprivation, and drink moderately (without the occasional drunk). I doubt it, though. It's hard to imagine why the people who this, but who never spend time posting here about their experiences, would be so very different from the people who DO post here.

As for those who post here a little, then disappear.... nobody knows, obviously, what is going on with them... But it seems much more likely, to me, that they have gone back to drinking, rather than that they are totally successful and just feel no interest in sharing that here. But there may be some for whom that is true!

My pessimism about all this (if it seems pessimistic) is based on what I know about alcohol addiction, and also on what I have heard from the folks who post here.

wip

[periwinkle]

Moderating is so subjective!

I don't know WIP. It seems like if someone is successfully moderating long term but is continually being told that's not possible they may get tired of "sharing" and eventually just go away.

[A Work in Progress]

Moderating is so subjective!

Peri, I don't think you are hearing me clearly! I could not be more supportive of people who are "successfully moderating long term"! I have not told anyone that it is not possible. However, I think everyone involved in this discussion agrees that it is not something everyone can do, and in fact it is pretty rare. The people who study this stuff for a living say the same thing. There are endless studies in the peer-reviewed scientific literature about the patterns and outcomes for people with serious alcohol problems who engage in: drinking, cutting down on drinking, abstinence, controlled drinking, etc. Alcohol dependence is a tough thing to recover from, and doing so while still consuming alcohol is quite a challenge.

I think it's clear that your heart is set on an ultimate goal of successful moderation, and I support you in that, and very much hope that it turns out to be the right path, for you! And, if so, that you will stick around to encourage and advise others who want to do the same.

wip

[vera-b]

Moderating is so subjective!

Whew! Peri, I just want to go on record that I was entranced by RJ's book because I so identified with it. I tried to utilize as much of the program she used as possible to mimic her results. And, like RJ, I did not do a 30-day stint. In fact, I tested myself on the 2nd day by pouring a glass of wine just to see how I "felt" about it. I could tell my perspective was changing, and did not have any more than that one glass. Over the last 4 1/2 months, I have been successfully modding with only a couple of times when I wasn't happy with my drinking behavior. I learned from those experiences and continue on the program. I suspect that one of the reasons there aren't more stories like this is that it takes a good deal of time to come here daily and connect with others, offer opinions in difficult situations, and welcome newbies.

One of the variables that is difficult to fully explore in this environment is the support system that exists for each member. RJ had an excellent support system which no doubt helped her greatly. I share with her that blessing for which I am thankful daily. I share all of this with you because I think it's important to put it out there that there are some people sharing the experience RJ described. It's just that a message board environment is limited to the group currently engaged, and that's going to be potluck at any given time. Now, it's past my bedtime and I'll let this subject rest. Will look forward to your posts on the long term mods thread.

Vera-b

[periwinkle]

Moderating is so subjective!

I admit that was a bit shallow of me. For clarification, I wasn't referring to you necessarily - it's all over the forum. There's a thread on the general discussion, "Is moderation possible". Take a look at all the "no" replies. I do find it disheartening.

I spent a little time with my 26 year old son yesterday just before that last post and had picked up on some negative energy from him. He has bi-polar disorder and refuses to take his meds. He was very angry about a situation in his life right now, was going off about it, and I picked up on some of his stuff. I will say, this is part of what I wrote about in my prior post in this thread about the "elimination diet". There are these "storms" that come my way that I cannot control. I am using this 30 day AL free time to identify my potential drinking "storms" or triggers. I told my husband last night that if I were not in an AL free time this would not be a good mod night for me because of the negative emotions I had carried throughout the day. He was with me on that and he agrees that he will be by my side to remind me of the triggers I am identifying now.

When I reread that post this morning I realized it wasn't so nice. I am sorry that I was offensive.

Today is a new day. Thank you all for your friendship and for your support (even when I'm not so likable).

periwinkle ops!:

[LVT25]

Moderating is so subjective!

Oh, Peri, You're almost always likeable!:H

I have been watching this thread with interest. I'm not so good at putting my thoughts into words, but I'll try.

As long as I've been here, there has been debate between the abstainers and moderators. This is my own, non-judgmental observation:

Many who post here choose to abstain.

Some can moderate successfully and stay here, some abstain successfully and stay here, some leave still successful.

Many struggle to abstain for 30 days. Some think they are successfully moderating, but in IMHO are calling it that when they can't abstain for a period of time.

Some use this as a social site--still drinking. I think the ones trying so hard get frustrated with this and have left the site.

I also believe there are various degrees of problem drinkers. Types. There have been some really interesting threads on the subject. I definately think it is much, much harder for some to quit or moderate.

I'm one of the lucky ones, and I thank God for that. (and this program and the people here) I won't go into my whole story again, but the bottom line is, I don't drink anymore. I could if I wanted to. And I have. Last time was Sept 27, I had a few beers with friends during a football game. I haven't had the desire since. My husband still drinks plenty, but I am dealing with that a little better. Sometimes I avoid him, sometimes, I'll sit and visit with him while he drinks beer and I have iced tea or a soda. (BTW--he uses too much butter also!)

Anyway, I appreciate all the ideas here. I think it is hard for the people that can't drink (or shouldn't) sometimes to hear about those than can--really can, if they choose. The great thing about the program is the hope for moderation brings many here that would never have reached out for help otherwise! :h

[Eve11]

Moderating is so subjective!

Gang,
When I was in AA and telling a few people I was a recovering alcoholic someone broke my confidence and shared this private information with a co-worker (a person who had jealousy issues with me so she was one person I definitely didn't want knowing my private information). I was so disheartened and honestly so mad at the label. Then I started looking around and noticed there were people far worse than me when they drank and I allowed that to be my downfall and started drinking again.

Just as moderation is subjective - so is this disease. I really think there's a difference between being an alcoholic and being a person who abuses alcohol. Perhaps the people who can moderate successfully are abusers and not true alcoholics?

One confusing thing that I've picked up from this thread is can I call myself a successful moderator if I'm drinking the way I want but still plan my drinking - when, how much, etc? According to some folks they don't consider that successful moderating because it's not like having butter to me. I respect their opinions but that's why the post was entitled "moderating is so subjective". Because it is. So, for me,
I'm not sure that I can ever get away from posting, tracking, coming here for support etc. But as long as I personally am drinking in a way that my family is no longer affected as they were...then that is successful to me.
Love everyone's input even though we've had some differences...but that's ok. Liked IAD's post about how many hairs make up a beard? 100? 500? It's so subjective as IAD said. So right on.
Hugs everyone. Have a great AF or mod in control day!
Eve

[A Work in Progress]

Moderating is so subjective!

Nice posts, LV and Eve.

My only small area of disagreement, LV... is that I truly think that the way this program is promoted and advertised (as an easy way to quit drinking or learn moderation, without discomfort, without craving) is misleading, and although it attracts a lot of people, some of them no doubt leave when they realize that they are not getting what they were led to believe they would be getting.

wip

[nancy]

Moderating is so subjective!

I have definitely read posts from people who said they were leaving because they resented the lack of support for those trying to moderate. Others have said they didn't post success with moderation because it might not be good for people with more serious problems trying to abstain. And there's some truth to that.