Moderating is so subjective!

[Eve11]

Gang,

Came across this old post and decided to bump it up as it's a great one for newbies and lurkers plus there's great info and lots of old familiar MWOers on it. So read on...

The term "moderation" can be confusing because it is so subjective.

I have different ideas of what moderation is for me than others have of what is moderate for them. Is there a true guideline of what true moderation really is?

Figured this would be a good idea for an interesting thread.

Hugs to you all.
Eve
p.s. See page 8 post 76 for information on what the National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and what Moderation Management considers to be moderate drinking.

[A Work in Progress]

Moderating is so subjective!

It's not one of those things that has an "official" or universally accepted definition! Which makes it, as you pointed out, subjective!!!

[Eve11]

Moderating is so subjective!

So how does one feel they're moderating well...only by keeping to goals that are set?
What if one doesn't keep set goals (how many or how much to drink per week) but hasn't experienced any of the negative consequences that existed before they started moderating, because just being more aware of the drinking, etc. helped them be in better control. Would that still be considered acceptable moderating?
Personally, I haven't been able to keep to my goals completely, yet I never had any of the negative consequences I've had in the past...too drunk, slurred speech, etc.
I'm still not sure if moderating is going to work for me. I had one episode of drinking more than intended and what was scary about that would be what if that ended up being a night of real negative consequences somehow because I drank more than intended.
Just curious to see what others think.

[j-vo]

Moderating is so subjective!

It's your twin! I think these are good questions, and hopefully long-term modders can help out with this one. I know I'm too new to touch on this one or to feel confident that I'm right, but I'm gonna give it a shot at what I think anyhow (how's that for assertiveness!)

I think the negative consequences are what we're trying to eliminate, and what may be negative to one person may not be for another (more subjectivity). How many drinks per hour should be considered - I would consider 1 per hour slow drinking. I think 1-2 nights per week is modding, but then someone else may be ok with 3 nights, or another may be once in a while - few times per month. I'm just confusing myself more. Forget it!

How 'bout this. Stick to your goals, tweaking it here or there as necessary. Sunbeam said that it took her months before she made a "plan" that worked for her. So go through these next few months trying to adhere to your written plan. Journal when something doesn't go the way you thought it should. We need to make sure we don't go back to the heavy drinking, feeling like crap, getting to the point of losing ourselves. In my guideline, one of the rules I am to follow is that if drinking becomes more important than normal everyday life routines, then modding isn't working, or it's time to make changes.

[vera-b]

Moderating is so subjective!

Hey modsters,

Just my 2 cents, but I think we each have a pretty good idea of what is moderate for us - whether it's the amount at a sitting or frequency of occasions. I say this because we know what is likely to put us over the edge. Some can have 2 or 3 glasses of wine, and others know that that 2nd or 3rd glass is what puts them on the path to a binge. Some people (I'm thinking of Bossman's mother - he said she has 1 drink a night) can drink daily with absolutely no consequences. But for me, even a teaspoon of vanilla extract on a daily basis would be too much as it would encourage a daily habit which was bad territory. So, I need plenty of AF days in between drinking occasions. And that's where I think Sunbeam was onto something particularly good - a moderating plan may take some time to devise. Through some trial and error, we find that point that when we exceed it, AL messes with us physically and emotionally (i.e. guilt). Certain behaviors encourage a return to the drinking days we left behind and must be avoided at all costs.

When our new behaviors become habit, practiced with regularity and having a drink does not cause all matter of high level brain activity, then I think we can say we successfully modded. But I think whether one is an abstainer or a modder, it behooves us to remember we all have the capability of being a drunk. And we don't want to be that! So, the answer like so many other things, requires some serious personal contemplation.

Vera-b

[Boss.man]

Moderating is so subjective!

In my opinion, successful Moderating is drinking at a low enough level that one does not become dependent on the alcohol.

Alcohol Dependence is defined as a condition where deprivation of alcohol causes physical symptoms or discomfort.

So basically, if halting alcohol or abstaining for a night or three causes poor sleep or cravings, then there is still a lingering dependence on alcohol. Moderating success would be found in the absence of these symptoms.

And as Vera mentioned, my Mother appears to moderate in that she drinks a small amount early, such that she can metabolize the entire drink before bedtime. And she only does this a couple times a week. I'm hoping myself to moderate after my 30 days, but only to have a glass of wine or two a week.

[DeeBee]

Moderating is so subjective!

Great thread!

I don't have anything to add to what has already been said but I am looking forward to reading the replies.

[A Work in Progress]

Moderating is so subjective!

I have a somewhat different perspective from Boss.man's. Alcohol dependence can also be defined as a condition in which a person develops what feels like an uncontrollable urge or extremely strong desire to drink alcohol in amounts that tend to be damaging to various aspects of that person's life and health. Some people who are clearly dependent find that they can stop drinking without any of the classic physical symptoms of withdrawal.

Since it is impossible (as of now) to draw a bright, clear, objectively measurable line between "problem drinking" and "dependence," or "addiction," it is hard to predict who might or might not be able to go back from a pattern of over-consumption, to consistently moderate consumption. It's also difficult to predict how much effort it might take to do that; for some, it takes quite a lot of discipline; and this would indicate that the person still has the underlying problem of an unusually high desire for alcohol...

wip

[j-vo]

Moderating is so subjective!

Vera-b
Wise words! I have read your post several times and will keep referring back to it and the many other posts. I think you're right. The key for me will be having a stretch of AF days, then being very careful of the number of drinks on that special occasion. We need to remember where we were, like you said. Thank you!

[Sunbeam]

Moderating is so subjective!

Bossman,
I find that definition of alcohol dependence very odd. I had no withdrawal symptoms, and didn't drink every day, but I definitely feel I was dependent on alcohol. I was compelled to drink even though I didn't want to drink, didn't like the effects. Maybe cravings are included in the concept of discomfort? If that isn't dependence, I don't know what is.

[nancy]

Moderating is so subjective!

I think that really we should aim for something more than moderation. To me moderation means that you don't overdo it. You can drink on a regular basis, have a few, and don't get drunk. You have enough AF days and don't obsess about alchohol or hoard alchohol.

But probably we should aim to go more toward abstinence (not total abstinence) to have some more room. You know, you said that you had a bit more than you wanted a few times. The trouble with this is that it really is a slippery slope. Another drunk can happen. So I think given a bad drinking history, we should aim for something very strict, like virtually a non-drinker with drinking allowed in select controlled situations. It such a serious problem, therefore serious measures are needed.

Just my point of view at the moment! This could change...

[A Work in Progress]

Moderating is so subjective!

Sunbeam;459851 wrote: Bossman,
I find that definition of alcohol dependence very odd. I had no withdrawal symptoms, and didn't drink every day, but I definitely feel I was dependent on alcohol. I was compelled to drink even though I didn't want to drink, didn't like the effects. Maybe cravings are included in the concept of discomfort? If that isn't dependence, I don't know what is.

At one time there was more of a distinction made between so-called "physical" dependence, which was evidenced by tolerance and withdrawal, and (mere) "psychological" dependence, which included difficulty or inability to control drinking, repeated drinking despite negative consequences, and craving or strong desire for alcohol. As it became clearer that withdrawal symptoms are not always present in people who have severe long-term histories of heavy drinking, and as it also became clear that the other symptoms (craving, loss of control) were certainly based in brain physiology (and therefore "physical" in nature), that distinction fell out of favor.

Currently, the definition used by psychiatrists and psychologists does not require the presence of objectively observable withdrawal symptoms such as tremors, elevated blood pressure, hallucinations, etc.

I never had any obvious "withdrawal symptoms," either, even though every time I quit, I quit "cold turkey." I had sleep disturbance, but it was the same sleep problem that I'd been having while I was still drinking.

wip

[Petey]

Moderating is so subjective!

This is a great thread for me because I am trying very hard to figure out/find what works for me for modding. I appreciate all these posts - quite mind provoking. I hate the fact that I allow alcohol (and food) take control over me and allow me to forget (because I have drank too much) how aweful I am going to feel the next day. I need to find that mod point for me. I can go days without any AL but then an evening out and I plan on 2 drinks but because the evening is lasting longer then I had thought - I choose to have more drinks (so much for my modding). I think I need to remind myself throughout the entire day - when I am planning an evening out - how aweful I feel when I over do it (and that would include the embarrassing moments).

Well, I am cerainly rambling here but I really need to talk this out because I need to figure out how I am going to have AL in moderation. It has become a big deal for me this week. Thanks for all the info.

[daisy2]

Moderating is so subjective!

I have had gastric bypass...great for the looks but now I have started drinking instead of eating...sub one problem for another. I can go without the drinks but once I start to party and have one it goes on from there....everyone just says don't drink...easier said than done.

[Sunbeam]

Moderating is so subjective!

WIP, thanks once again for sharing your vast knowledge base. I have learned so much from you, probably owe you my life. But I am very sorry I couldn't fine a crescent wrench in my basement. I really had been willing to send you one!

Back on topic, I think a big mistake is when people with past problem drinking look at moderation limits set for normal people, and then think they are going to be able to do that. We are not normal, our body chemistry may have been different at birth, and we have definitely changed it through excess drinking.