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**Eve11** · January 26, 2010, 10:30 AM

planning my new life of moderation.

Letgo,

We're fortunate to vacation quite often and this has always been my biggest battle because I tend to drink daily too only while on vacation.

Note: I am not an alcohol expert but I believe true alcohol withdrawal happens to only people who are chronic, severe drinkers going way over the daily limit of 1 for women - 2 for men.

To be within recommended safe limits you could have a drink daily. I usually have 1 or 2 on vacation and then go back home to usually only 2-3 x during the week with 1-2 drinks. I usually keep my drinking to 7--9 drinks a week unless I've had a slip and polish off a wine bottle in a night which tends to blow that weekly quota for me!! I'm really working on that one.

For me, it's darn hard on vacation not to drink as we tend to stay at places with free happy hours, etc.
But dt's for a daily drinker who takes in 7-14 drinks in a week? I don't think so.

My thoughts,
Eve11

**letgolaughing** · January 26, 2010, 11:18 AM

planning my new life of moderation.

eve - thanks for sharing...
i looked at your drink tracker and it seems you are modding pretty good. i hope to do that one day soon. i swear, this stupid fear is getting the best of me. anyway...i doubt seriously that i'll only have 1 drink a day while on vacation. normally, i'd have about 5 or even 6. Over the course of the whole day. and actually, i'm the lightest drinker 'cept for my father inlaw

not one of these folks that i vacation with worry about withdrawals when they come back home. they just go on about their regular life. why can't i? it's not because i can't mod, it's because of my ocd fear of withdrawals.

so, i found this on hamsnetwork.org
"Women are more sensitive to the negative effects of alcohol than are men. If you are a woman of average weight and you have been drinking 6 standard drinks a day every day for a month then you have about a fifty-fifty chance of going through minor withdrawal, but it probably won't be life threatening. On the other hand a woman who has been drinking 11 standard drinks a day for a month has about a fifty-fifty chance of going through major life threatening withdrawal. If you have been drinking a shorter period of time then you will have to have drunk more per day to be in danger of withdrawal. A woman who has 8 standard drinks per day every day for a week has about a fifty-fifty chance of having minor withdrawal whereas a woman who drinks around 15 standard drinks a day everyday for a week has about a fifty-fifty chance of having major withdrawal. "

so, i'm not average weight, i'm 110 lbs, so i am a little less.

so do we trust this website?
if so, then, i'm cool. i am SURE i will drink less than i normally do, so, probably 4 drinks a day, with maybe an AF day thrown in!

i'm kinda excited about doing that! the beach sober! sounds fun actually.
LOL

**Tiny** · January 26, 2010, 11:36 AM

planning my new life of moderation.

I agree with Eve -- the amounts that you indicated that you were drinking should not trigger withdrawels... (I am not a Dr.)

**lodestar** · January 27, 2010, 04:40 AM

planning my new life of moderation.

Hi Letgo,

You asked for people to straighten out the conflicting information about withdrawals, but it seems you haven't really integrated the repeated advice you've received. I've seen about 6 threads you started within about a week all essentially covering the same topic. I'm not going to address the seizure issue, because you've already heard many thoughts on that.

It sounds to me like you're putting the cart before the horse on this vacation planning thing though, when you haven't been able to get through a day without alcohol in some time. I'm not judging your alcohol use, I'm just saying that it seems counterproductive to be planning for six months from now when you admittedly have trouble getting through a day without alcohol. You continually say that you're moderating well, yet you are concerned about your use? That doesn't make sense. If you're moderating well, then what's the problem? Is the problem that you know you are not moderating well, meaning you would like to stop drinking so much but you haven't been able to?

My .02 is that you are getting in your own way and need additional support. Perhaps all this focus on possible seizures is camouflaging a real issue ~ not seizures ~ but that you haven't been able to go a day without alcohol. I would guess that the alcohol use is really exacerbating your symptoms and it is unlikely you will get out of this loop by maintaining this level of use.

If you are truly afraid, then you know you could be monitored by a professional for detox. But, as you mentioned elsewhere, you don't think that's necessary

Whatever you decide, good luck with finding your way out of this cycle. The dual diagnoses of mental illness and alcohol/substance abuse are truly difficult, but many people have succeeded in recovery. I'm sure you can too. Take care.

**letgolaughing** · January 27, 2010, 06:53 AM

planning my new life of moderation.

lodestar...i see where you can misunderstand because my issue of irrational fear mixed with my wish not to drink as much as I have been is confusing.

I was just merely looking ahead. Thinking of life in the future and I like to plan which is where my question about vacation came up. it makes me feel a little better if i can answer some of the questions before I face them.

As far a moderating, when i said i was moderating well, i meant that I am consistently good at limiting myself when i drink, however, I drink every day which is where I don't feel successful with moderation. that is why i'm here.

you're right. i haven't been able to get to an AF day yet. but it is truly the fear of the withdrawals that keeps stopping me. if you don't have irrational fears, it is hard to understand and easy to suggest that perhaps i'm avoiding the real issue. i'm truly not. it's very difficult to explain. And, yes, I have posted many times for support and to draw from real life experience to help me feel more comfortable.

thanks for the lecture. I'm now really embarrassed that I shared my ocd fears on this board. I guess you are an good example of how most folks are feeling about my fears and posting for reassurance. I guess i need to back off and stop seeking reassurance.

**Eve11** · January 27, 2010, 03:47 PM

planning my new life of moderation.

letgolaughing;797154 wrote:
I'm now really embarrassed that I shared my ocd fears on this board. I guess you are an good example of how most folks are feeling about my fears and posting for reassurance. I guess i need to back off and stop seeking reassurance.

LetGo,
As you will discover, the problem with online support groups is it's easy for things to be misunderstood or misconstrued because we don't have the eye contact, tone, etc. to clarify things.

Honestly, when I read your first post - I misread it with all of the information about withdrawals and how much people could safely drink before a certain % experience dt's and I thought you were a very heavy daily drinker of 7-14 drinks! LOL! How we can all misunderstand things. So, then when I read your post about how you're sick with only a consumption of 5 in a day's time (me too) I realized I had misunderstood your first post.

We have plenty of people here with different afflictions as well as alcohol problems, a lot of folks with anxiety disorders, seasonal depression disorders, etc. so don't feel any remorse about what you posted or shared with us.

I think Lodestar was speaking with general concern for you and trying to give you proper information if you were one of those people maybe not sharing how much they really consumed and possibly in jeopardy for real dt issues?? Anyway, hope that clarifies things a bit. Don't back off on us - we're all here for you.

Big :l
Eve11

**lodestar** · January 27, 2010, 04:13 PM

planning my new life of moderation.

Dear letgo,

I'm very sorry. I re-read my post and see how it sounded arrogant. Honestly, I do understand the irrational fears and I didn't mean it that way. I, too, had a lot of anxiety and it is easy to get stuck in a cycle of fear that keeps us drinking long past the point where we want to. I didn't mean that you were camouflaging the issue...I meant that the OCD symptoms could be camouflaging the issue. It's a tricky and frustrating condition. I didn't say that clearly and I apologize.

Those of us with mental health issues have a double battle to fight, and it is really tough to know whether it is the cunning nature of addiction or the mental health issue at work when we're stuck. My point was simply that in the end, alcohol is like fuel to the fire and makes it impossible to see what is really going on while drinking (even a small amount daily). Just my experience.

I don't think you should back off posting at all. Whatever it takes!

Respectfully,
Lodes

**Sweaty Betty** · January 27, 2010, 08:39 PM

planning my new life of moderation.

Hi Letgo,
I was a daily drinker - maybe 3/4 bottle of wine, and I was getting close to a bottle, but it was EVERY day, I was very anxious about being without, especially in any kind of social setting. However, to cut a long story short I did ONE alcohol free day in a Week. Then I did two, then I did a week, then I did 30 days, it wasn't smooth sailing, but the sense of achievement was fantastic. I wasn't sure what my plan was, but I've been moderating for about 9 months. I can't have more than 3 glasses now, I just feel ill. I'm just starting a 30 day AF stint as I'm on a big health kick - and don't want the extra calories, and I have to say, being AF now feels great and takes very little effort. Everyone has given sound advice, and everyone's experiences here on MWO are different. I would say don't think too far ahead, do that ONE day AF, and move forward from there.

Take Care,

Bets

**Cinders** · January 27, 2010, 10:58 PM

planning my new life of moderation.

LetGo,

I read Lodestar's original post and got out of it what she clarified in her second post. Please don't be too sensitive about what people post. It is very easy to misunderstand something someone has written.

Occasionally there are those who slam others here. It does happen. Guess what, this is a site for alcoholics. Alcoholics can and do say horrible things. I know I do if I drink.

I did want to add something here about withdrawals and the danger of seizures because of the link and what Eve has said.

I have gone through withdrawals many, many, many, many......times. Serious withdrawals. I have had shakes, tremors, visions, sweats, etc. I am a hardcore alcoholic. Seriously. One or two bottles of vodka a day is something I can and have done many times. It is amazing I have not killed myself yet. Truly.

I was at my doctor's office the other day and we discussed that. She told me that binge drinking is more dangerous for withdrawals than those who drink daily. The binge drinker goes through withdrawals over and over again, which causes something called kindling.

Since I have been trying to quit drinking, I have gone from being an everyday drinker to a binge drinker when I relapse. She warned me that I could easily have a seizure and would then lose my driver's license for six months. (I have a great doctor, btw, and love the fact that I can be so open and honest with her, and she with me. I am very lucky.)

Please understand, a binge for me is 1 to 2 large bottles of vodka a day. We are not talking a few drinks. We are talking 30 standard drinks in one bottle. So do not compare the 5-7 drinks a day as binging. It is over-indulging.

I post this only because I think it is also important to be aware that true bingeing is just as dangerous as everyday drinking and has the added danger of making the person more susceptible to seizures from withdrawal.

My goal is complete abstinence, btw. I cannot moderate at all. Give me a drink and I will drink everything that is available until I pass out. Therein lies the difference between an alcoholic and an alcohol abuser.

LetGo. I think your plan of moderation is a good one. I also think you can start doing a few AF days here and there. I like Sweaty Betty's method. A few here and there to start with and then start adding more and more consecutive days AF. Pretty soon, you would be feeling much more confident about going AF.

Also, on the OCD thing. We have quite a few members on this site with OCD. We have many with GAD and several bipolar members. (It is statistically shown that 80% of the bipolar population has an alcohol or drug addiction. It is called self-medicating.)

I think it is important to address both issues. I know that the mental issues don't just go away and drugs do not always "cure" them, I know well because I suffer anxiety and depression, and my psychiatrist thinks I may very well be bipolar. I want to get a fair amount of sober time under my belt so that we can accurately diagnose my mental condition. But, I also know that if I am truly bipolar, I need to deal with it if I want to stay sober.

LetGo, take this one day at a time and you will be successful. And, do not let anyone here deter you from that. I think you are doing very well, myself, considering your fears.

I know how my brain can dwell on something to the point of debilitating me from normal activities of daily living. When it does, my anxiety goes through the roof. I cannot function. In the past, a couple of drinks "fixed" it. Today, for me, there is no such thing as a couple of drinks. I have to find a healthier way to "fix" that.

We both can do this.

Love,
Cindi

**Guitarista** · January 28, 2010, 03:21 AM

planning my new life of moderation.

I love you Cindi!..........;-)

Best wishes Let go.

**letgolaughing** · January 28, 2010, 07:21 AM

planning my new life of moderation.

thanks to all of you. eve your compassion is amazing. lodes, sorry i got a little defensive. i just felt misunderstood, and yes, that can happen with ocd and the internet. glad we could talk it out

cindi - that's what i'm talking about! that is what i needed to hear. some concrete stuff. Thanks for sharing that with me. I will re-read it when i feel the need to ask again

i think i'm doing pretty good. it's been hard because i've been so anxious, so yep, i've been wanting to self medicate. BUT, I do know that I will be less anxious overall if i stop the daily drinking habit. I KNOW i will. I just have to get past this part, right?
That's where betty comes in...yay! betty, i'm gonna follow your plan. I think my anxiety is worsened because I have this impulsive need to "do it right now" and feel like i can't because of the ocd fear. So, it is difficult because I have to drag it out! But, I'm trying to wrap my head around the fact that this is a lifestyle change and quite possibly i can't just change it overnight! So, I have resolved that it may take a month or so before I get to where I want to be. So, i'm going to do a plan like Betty says. check out my drink tracker to keep me accountable, ok?

xoxo

**Eve11** · January 28, 2010, 10:19 AM

planning my new life of moderation.

WOW!!

LetGo,

Isn't it amazing what fabulous people we have here.

I loved what Betty said to you and thought it was just what you needed to hear to start your plan - just one day a week, etc. Great example for you of someone with a similar problem and their way out.

And Cinders...wow...you are a plethora of knowledge and you have given Letgo and thousands of others who will read your post some real pearls of wisdom and vital information.

LetGo,
Let's start today.
Be AF today with me and p.m. me tomorrow and let me know how you did. Get some fun things to drink - like seltzer water and cranberry juice or one of those bottles of fake champagne made with grapes.

Start a journal - this may help to keep you more motivated.

P.M. those you feel can be most helpful to you like Betty or Cinders who have walked the walk or understand the OCD issues well if you feel you need more 1:1 time and don't want the whole world to know you business.

Hang in there. We're all here for you and for each other.
:l
Eve11

**letgolaughing** · January 28, 2010, 12:39 PM

planning my new life of moderation.

eve...ok. i will go AF tonight. i am still having the irrational fear of a seizure, but try to keep telling myself that i have not had more than 2 drinks in a night in 10 days(except for one night when i had 3). I don't have to taper to down to ONE, right? tapering down to 2 is safe, right? right? mostly i've tried to stick to 1.5 over the past week.

i think about it and i still get scared.

but, i will try tonight.

**Eve11** · January 28, 2010, 03:10 PM

planning my new life of moderation.

letgolaughing;797817 wrote: eve...ok. i will go AF tonight. i am still having the irrational fear of a seizure, but try to keep telling myself that i have not had more than 2 drinks in a night in 10 days(except for one night when i had 3). I don't have to taper to down to ONE, right? tapering down to 2 is safe, right? right? mostly i've tried to stick to 1.5 over the past week.

i think about it and i still get scared.

but, i will try tonight.

Letgo,

The irrational fear comes from the OCD diagnosis. I highly doubt you would have any type of withdrawal symptoms with the amount of drinking you have shared but I don't want to encourage you to do something that you're not emotionally ready for. Maybe you would psychologically feel better to taper down to a drink a day for a while and then try to go AF one day on a week that you feel more ready about.

Our founder RJ has good info on the Need help asap thread - Look "for those in crisis" and it links you to good info regarding withdrawal, etc. Make that your homework assignment and check that out today if your time permits.

My phone is set up that I get instant messages so please p.m. anytime and know that I'm here to help you. If you have a comfort level p.m. me your name and number and I'll do the same and we can connect via phone if you feel that would help you through this scary process.

:l
Eve11

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