Can you moderate?

[Alcoholic]

Can you moderate?

Kuya:

Let me explain how I and most people got directed to the NN site . You are probably better at designing it but I overlooked the toolbox for several days... Maybe because of my ADHD.

I searched alcohol OTC treatment. Read something about kudzu. Got directed to this Mwo forum. Read a few. Didn't know where to post, just posted in general discussion or just starting forum saying I'm new. Then someone tells me to go to newbies nest. So I just introduced myself. Figure there were thousands of posts previous to mine, no way I could catch up, I would just catch up from that day on. And go back when I have the time or energy.

So the thoughts of abstaining and moderation NEVER even entered my mind. I was just thinking of that day. One hour at a time. Thinking to share my feelings, my physical symptoms so I would not feel so alone, to get some support and encouragement. To be heard to be acknowledged, but bammm.... There's this huge thing about abstaining and moderation. Ok. No big deal. Let me do what I need to do. I'm still not thinking of the culture, just thinking of sharing my experience and my feelings.

So what I'm saying is most newbies unfamiliar to this site are not going to be aware of the subtleties described here until day 10-14. That's just my opinion.

[kuya]

Can you moderate?

Yeah but when someone starts having real problems even getting past day 2 or 3 they can be have the tapering thread to actively engage in and not feel like they have failed.

They can hop between the two as much as they like but there will be people in both camps to help out. This is a chance for the moderators to feel included rather than 'otherated' as currently occurs.

[Alcoholic]

Can you moderate?

Oh I see, you are right. Sure. That sounds like it would work, kuya.

[Eve11]

Can you moderate?

DfromCT;1399590 wrote: Maybe we should have two threads in the "Just Starting Out" area: One for newbies that are looking to moderate, another for newbies that are undecided, or intent on abstaining. That way people that want to talk about their struggles with moderation, or even their fears of failing at moderation can do so without worrying that they might rock the boat of those that are only interested in hearing about abstaining. And those that are clear that they are only willing to tolerate AF talk need not worry about what's being said in the other thread.

Personally I think this is a brilliant idea D. Alcoholic was apologizing for mentioning on NN that he had drank the night before and didn't realize that it was considered a no - no. The response he got was "It's not necessarily a "rule" in the Nest, it's more common courtesy."

I guess the problem that I have with that statement is newbies don't know all of the "rules" or what is considered courteous and what isn't. Some are drawn to MWO and then informed to go to NN but they were drawn to MWO because they googled moderation. Or some may want to cut down on their drinking but do not have intentions of completely quitting. The responses they get from older members who visit NN seem to be very helpful and supportive but a select few AFers are categorizing everyone in the box of "severe alcoholic" who are extremely fragile and just making it minute by minute, and that is just not the case for everyone. Or these few AFers are concerned for the folks who are that way (struggling minute by minute) and then get riled up because an unknowing newbie states they may want to try having a drink at a wedding or special occasion.

Therefore, it would be helpful to have two distinct threads set up so those that are really struggling minute by minute and can't bear the thought of even hearing someone attempting moderation wouldn't be subjected to that. And those who are toying with the idea of trying moderation could share their feelings on a newbie thread that encouraged that line of thinking. And the poor newbies who don't know all of the rules (how could they?) wouldn't have to be walking on eggshells because they posted the wrong statement which resulted in a tounge lashing by someone.

Sounds like a good plan to me.

:l
Eve11

[DfromCT]

Can you moderate?

Eve, you've very accurately portrayed my experience in the NN. I was run out and later accused of "promoting moderation to newbies who really need to be AF for a long period of time" when I never EVER did so.

I think there should be a Newbie Nest in the "Just Starting Out" area that is open to discussion of moderation, tapering, or whatever the plan WITHOUT FEAR of being run off by those that are so protective of the existing NN and its' contributors who are set off by such discussion. MY WAY OUT was not started as an all-or-nothing proposition w/r/t alcohol, as some that dominate the NN want us to believe. I think a large percentage of short time visitors that never post get discouraged when they see that the NN is not an alternative to the all or nothing approach that they thought they were finding when they first sought this site.

That's my experience, and as I previously posted, I wouldn't have finished week 2 AF (of what would turn into 15 weeks) had one of our regulars not reached out to me and told me of the moderation area of the forums. When I tried to do the same to others posting about drinking in the NN, I made the mistake of doing so publically rather than sending them a PM.

[Alcoholic]

Can you moderate?

D from ct:

My experience is the same as yours. I think the newbies nest isn't as safe psychologically as they think it is. They judge others but can't take a criticism themselves. Not once did they care to apologize and even acknowledge that others feelings could be legitimate. I admit I could hurt others w my words but when I do, I don't say, you're just being defensive or overly sensitive. I just say I'm sorry I've offended you and maybe I should have worded it this other way.

But hey, some people will never change. We can't change others, we can only change ourselves!!!!

[K9Lover]

Can you moderate?

Alcoholic;1399855 wrote: D from ct:

My experience is the same as yours. I think the newbies nest isn't as safe psychologically as they think it is. They judge others but can't take a criticism themselves. Not once did they care to apologize and even acknowledge that others feelings could be legitimate. I admit I could hurt others w my words but when I do, I don't say, you're just being defensive or overly sensitive. I just say I'm sorry I've offended you and maybe I should have worded it this other way.

But hey, some people will never change. We can't change others, we can only change ourselves!!!!

Hi Alco -
I just want to apologize if I've said anything offensive, I really do not mean to. I think sometimes my passion for helping people makes me say things that might come across as harsh. I do apologize if I hurt your feelings. I think your feelings (and everyone's) are absolutely legitimate...no matter what they are! Please accept my apology.

K9

[Alcoholic]

Can you moderate?

Thank you, k9.

I really appreciate that!!! And I don't even think you ever offended me at all! You're very considerate of others feelings and I see it in your posts. But thank you for saying that nonetheless and I also apologize if I have said anything to offend you in anyway. I would gladly take any criticism of how I should phrase things because my husband and my son always tell me I'm too mean.

[Eve11]

Can you moderate?

K9Lover;1399857 wrote: Hi Alco -
I just want to apologize if I've said anything offensive, I really do not mean to. I think sometimes my passion for helping people makes me say things that might come across as harsh. I do apologize if I hurt your feelings. I think your feelings (and everyone's) are absolutely legitimate...no matter what they are! Please accept my apology.K9

K9,
I totally see your passion in helping others and I don't know if we can ever agree to disagree but some of us really do believe harm reduction and possibly moderation can help some people. There are different stages of problem drinkers and everyone isn't cut from the same pattern. For example, I took care of a 20 something college student years ago who got a DUI and the court sent her to AA counseling. The whole group was telling her she could never drink again. Was she alcoholic? She was in an alcohol abuse stage she would most likely grow out of, college party scene, etc. However, our system 20 something years ago was AA or nothing, all or nothing.

As everyone knows I love research so have to share that according to the NIAAA and many other independent researchers, there are four times as many problem drinkers as alcoholics in this country. Yet there are very few programs that specifically address the needs of beginning stage problem drinkers, while there are literally thousands of programs for the smaller population who are seriously alcohol dependent.

Over here in the mod section, we are passionate about helping others too, but our methods are different. We are more about promoting abstinence (note we have an AF thread) but less judgmental if people fail or talk about the possibility of drinking again and our techniques are less harsh than what a hardcore AL counselor would dish out. We're more about discussing our triggers, finding other ways to stay occupied, and utilizing techniques called Motivational Interviewing where we "roll" with the resistance as we focus more on a members motivation to change by helping them to realize their problems are from within rather than being forced to change from an authority figure (like the courts when AA attendance is mandated) which takes personal choice away. We are all about choice here.

Anyway, thank you for your apology to Alcoholic and I'm going to latch on to it as a peace offering to me as I have to admit I was offended by your one post that followed BirdLadys.
Peace to you.
:l
Eve11

[DfromCT]

Can you moderate?

The way I look at it, regardless of your goal (AF or Mod) we all come here seeking help in confronting a problem. I can respect that some posters can be dangerously tempted by talk of moderation, and have not posted talk of moderating anywhere that I know is "controlled" by the AF crew. I hate to be bullied into thinking that I did something wrong to share my thoughts and fears, and am more reluctant to do so knowing that some are lurking, judging, policing and reporting what we're discussing here in the mods area. The sense of cyber-bullying is what gets me P.O'd. I'm sure this attitude of not tolerating moderation discussion in the "Just Getting Started" area has scared off as many people as it has welcomed (if that makes sense).

For that reason, I think a Newbie thread designed for those that might be intimidated in a thread that is moderation intolerant might be a way to welcome others that seek to try moderation. I personally would urge anyone to at minimum get 30 days AF, then decide when they feel the time is right what they want to do. But it wouldn't be a pre-requisite for participation, nor would we shame anyone who drank. Which path to take is a very personal decision, and trying to tell them otherwise is like trying to tell the Coyote he's not going to catch the Roadrunner!

BTW: I feel that the AF folks we've been battling ARE WELL INTENTIONED. But I am sure they don't realize that they come off as bullying. The folks that they've helped, who share their views, rally to their defense whenever these Hatfield v. McCoy skirmishes begin, are loyal for a good reason, but they further the perception of bullying! Nobody wins these arguments, and those that are put off as a result (many of which we'll never hear from) are the unfortunate losers. For that, I'm truly sorry that I've ever engaged in the feud. :sulk:

I also feel that the site should NEVER be an all-or-nothing proposition, as there's already way more help for alcoholics than there is for problem drinkers. Someone that comes here because they feel they need to look at their drinking and end up not quitting, but takes note of how much and how often they drink has done themselves a world of good. Regardless of whether they decide to continue, go AF or moderate, they've taken a step, which is honorable (IMHO). Who are any of us, alcoholics, tea-totallers, problem drinkers, AF or modders, to say those folks aren't deserving of a place here?

RJ is no longer around, but if anyone has read the book lately, it SCREAMS out to those that want an alternative to the all or nothing approach. It's why I'm here, and why I'm sober.
:cents
D

[Stewarts]

Can you moderate?

I am finally catching up with this, but I had similiar experience in the nn, way long time ago, because alcohilic, like you, I was told, well, that was where to go. Now, I should state, not everyone was a self-rightoues bully, e.g. K9 was very sweet and understanding; however, most of them, well, I never saw so much anger, hatred and close mindedness over a computer screen! Kind of reminded me of the "straight-edge" people in HS, that didn't do any vices, but would kick your ass (literally) if you choose to (including sex).

Last time I checked, this is not a Dr.'s office; no one on here is a trained professional to deal with peoples problems, mental or physical - I am sure there are some health care professionals as members, but it's not their job to analyze anyone symptons over a computer screen nor would that be approriate. This is just people talking and sharing.

I have, as I am sure pretty much everyone on here, has seen or known real, sever alcoholic and/or drug addicts; we unfortunatley had to let a young man go here, at my job, because if he did not check in to a facility (for long term care) he probably was going to die.

So, you live and learn, you figure it out...we all have. I just steer clear of the ignorance in the NN and stay here. Yeah, every now and then one of them stops in to mess with us, but who really cares. They are only making themselves look foolish.

j.

[kuya]

Can you moderate?

So, regardless of past hurts, it looks like having two newbie threads of equal status and input from both camps may resolve the problem.

That being so, it only remains to name them and word the direction for newbies to the satisfaction of everyone.

Perhaps thrashing it out in PM and then putting the best of everyone's ideas on a new thread would be good.

[FreeFly]

Can you moderate?

Interesting dialogue again. Not sure where I fit in to this whole picture. Sometimes AF, sometimes Mod. Where to post, where not to post, where to be accepted. 30 days/not 30 days. Not the same person I was when I found MWO but where to fit in? Hey ho, post anyway because it helps me. Treading my own path for better or worse (better methinks) and grateful for the friends and wisdom I find. Saddened by the conflict that does arise but choose to ignore for the most part. As a rule I think most are intelligent enough to find what works for them. Nanny state not necessary. Dare I say we get there in our own sweet time. Ladybird approach for me

[Eve11]

Can you moderate?

Kuya,

We're running the idea for a thread by the Forum Moderator and we have a tentative name but there's more work to be done. I also asked the originiator of the NN post to possibly edit it to encourage abstainers only and redirect those that aren't ready to commit to that yet, our way so we don't have this ongoing problem of "stepping on toes". However, the originator hasn't posted for 3 years so that may not happen. We'll see. We know we don't need the Forum Moderator's permission to create a new post in the just starting out section but we don't like creating waves and certainly have concerns about hard core alcoholics being given false hope of moderation.

FreeFly, To you or anyone abstaining, you are all welcome here as long as our discussions of moderate drinking don't bother you. To fight the abstinence battle best, one may get better support from AF threads from people living it and walking the talk so to speak. But over here, there is no fear of being reprimanded if one thinks about drinking as sometimes people really fighting the battle can be a little abrasive when people relapse, post drunk, are thinking about drinking, etc.

:l
Eve11

Dang,

Renewal replied and here is what he (not she as I thought) said:
Hello Nesters, this is Renewal...also known as Mark. I created the Nest several years ago. I am no longer a visitor here, but was contacted today by someone who asked for clarification on a few things as she expressed there had been aa little friction here as of late.
-my intent in beginning this thread was to offer a safe and supportive place for newcomers to be. Whether they were abstaining from alcohol completely or moderating, nobody was turned away....or judged.
-people could stay as long as they wished. No pressure was ever placed after a certain number of days or milestone.
I've visited on occasion over the years and seen nothing but love and support here. I'm extremely proud of what the nest stands for and the people who occupy it. I realize virtually nobody here knows me (except Lav), but I truly hope everybody will continue to respect my original intent.....offering support and respect to each who visit....without judgement. Thank you for listening, and I wish you all the best.

So, although I am grateful that he clarified his intentions, I don't think it has solved our problem as it seems people considering harm reduction/mod support are often times not getting that help. Thoughts gang?

[FreeFly]

Can you moderate?

Thanks Eve - nice to have a welcome :l I like to take bounce around and listen to what resonates and reject what doesn't. Works for me