AF Daily Sunday Nov 16

[Cinders]

AF Daily Sunday Nov 16

Speedster,

I am glad for your post. It is part of today's thoughts. It is important.

I hope you get to your utopian place. I really do.

What makes me think MWO has so much value is that we can all talk like this, people who are not "ready" to go AF can still be here and take their time.

If you find you must be AF, so be it. If you find you can truly moderate, ie. alcohol has no more importance in your life than butter, then you should go there.

However, Speedster, we will all be here and ready for you no matter what. That is one more thing I love about MWO. We care. The people here have given me that love and caring and I cannot imagine how I could ever have gotten to where I am today without them.

Love,
Cindi

[retteacher]

AF Daily Sunday Nov 16

I just got back from a day out w/my women friends. It started w/a brunch at someone's home, & the iced bucket of champagne didn't bother me. I didn't feel deprived at all. I had a lovely cup of coffee to start with. I'm home now w/no headache & more importantly no regrets. The more I pass up the AL, the easier it becomes.

Mary

[Boss.man]

AF Daily Sunday Nov 16

WIP just a thought your post brings back our past conversations about addiction.

I'm still thinking that if addiction cannot be cured, the solution is to replace a harmful addiction with one that's generally considered beneficial. Instead of drinking, eating or doing drugs, to engage in a hobby, exercise, church or volunteering such that people think you are a "saint" when you engage in this all-consuming activity.

In the Tao of Sobriety book, the author cures his drinking by becoming addicted to AA meetings at one point going to eight meetings in a day. He then cures AA addiction by becoming addicted to Zen Buddhism to the point where he "runs away from home" and lives in China and later France as a Buddhist monk. Most people would not consider eating tofu and sitting for eight hours a day an "addiction", but this author offers it as a solution to alcoholism, and the way he practices it appears to me to be one.

In your work I recall that you have known a lot of addicted people. Any further thoughts on simply switching one addiction for another?

To me, the long term solution is to find new activities to consume my time and energy, and NONE of them are going to be alcohol related. Since I've broken the link, I'm no longer bored at work or paranoid about problems. I love the challenges found in my every day activity, and am getting ready to seek new ones. For me, I think that's where the road lies ahead.

[caysea]

AF Daily Sunday Nov 16

Hi Reteacher
Well done!!!!To me those are the real test's in regards to how we are doing.When other people are drinking and it doesn't bother you or matter that is a big step in our recovery.

Stay Healthy and Keep Fighting
AF 5-16-08

[A Work in Progress]

AF Daily Sunday Nov 16

Determinator;469838 wrote:
whew! for a moment I thought you were getting away from us WIP. now way! you've been officially adopted sister.

Thanks Brother Det! I'm grateful, too... ! Very much so.

wip

[A Work in Progress]

AF Daily Sunday Nov 16

Boss.man;470239 wrote: WIP just a thought your post brings back our past conversations about addiction.

I'm still thinking that if addiction cannot be cured, the solution is to replace a harmful addiction with one that's generally considered beneficial. Instead of drinking, eating or doing drugs, to engage in a hobby, exercise, church or volunteering such that people think you are a "saint" when you engage in this all-consuming activity.

....
In your work I recall that you have known a lot of addicted people. Any further thoughts on simply switching one addiction for another?

To me, the long term solution is to find new activities to consume my time and energy, and NONE of them are going to be alcohol related. Since I've broken the link, I'm no longer bored at work or paranoid about problems. I love the challenges found in my every day activity, and am getting ready to seek new ones. For me, I think that's where the road lies ahead.

Bossman, I do think that building a new life is a major part of the key to long-term success in this ballgame; and that includes new ways of thinking, new ways to deal with emotions, and certainly new activities! I tend not to use the term "switching addictions," however, although for a while the term "positive addictions" enjoyed some popularity with professionals in this business. And there are some similarities, especially for a few people who do tend to really go overboard with things, as in the examples you cite. In those examples, the behavioral pattern really looks like addiction.

BUT at the same time, we should recognize that most activities, for most people, do not have a direct and immediate impact on our neurochemistry, which drugs/alcohol do have; also, most of us do not have built-in vulnerabilities to overuse of alcohol/drugs, which many addicts (or those who become dependent) appear to have; and, finally, other activities do not have the disinhibiting impact on our frontal lobes that alcohol, especially, has. So the pursuit of those activities, while it can in some people become quite compulsive in terms of the subjective sense of being driven to do the activity, is rarely something that approaches the level of dependence that people can easily acquire with chemicals.

Some activities fall into a gray area: gambling and sexual activity are powerful reinforcers, with a strong neurochemical impact that can become similar to that of alcohol/drugs. Exercise, with its impact on the production of endogenous opioids, is another one.

Part of a complete plan for freedom from alcohol/drug dependence, ABSOLUTELY, should be the cultivation of new and rewarding, meaningful activities. Makes a HUGE difference, I think!

wip

[Boss.man]

AF Daily Sunday Nov 16

A Work in Progress;470251 wrote: BUT at the same time, we should recognize that most activities, for most people, do not have a direct and immediate impact on our neurochemistry, which drugs/alcohol do have; also, most of us do not have built-in vulnerabilities to overuse of alcohol/drugs, which many addicts (or those who become dependent) appear to have; and, finally, other activities do not have the disinhibiting impact on our frontal lobes that alcohol, especially, has.

I thought about that at dinner, after I made the post.

"Addiction" has a specific meaning that is not invoked for most positive activities which I described.

My point is; if AL caused a neural superhighway between reward activity and the feeling of pleasure, is it possible through non-addictive activity to create functional neural side-roads (maybe not as large) that create the same activity/pleasure feedback cycle?

Isn't a person driven by model train building (as an example) still using the same activity/pleasure/reward circuits in the brain? I'm not saying the circuits are invoked the same way. But doesn't the feeling of pleasure and accomplishment invoke the same reward cycle, and form a self-affirming "habit" that gives pleasure? And on repetition of that activity, creating the long-term neural connections to better reward further activities within the scope of their interest?

Understood on disinhibiting factors. Inhibitions come from our society and upbringing and are easily discarded when needed. The model train builder wears railroad clothing and a "choo choo" hat, for instance, clothing that would make him or her the object of ridicule in most public situations.

[1dayatatime]

AF Daily Sunday Nov 16

To be approaching 4 months is an amazing achievement. I hope your feeling very proud of yourself. At the moment 4 months seems like a life time away for me but hearing from people like yourself that it's possible makes me more determined to keep going. :goodjob:

[Cinders]

AF Daily Sunday Nov 16

1Day,

:welcome: to the AF Daily thread.

We look forward to getting to know you and will be more than happy to help you in any way we can.

We start a new thread every day. It is called "AF Daily "

Cindi

[A Work in Progress]

AF Daily Sunday Nov 16

Boss.man;470313 wrote:
My point is; if AL caused a neural superhighway between reward activity and the feeling of pleasure, is it possible through non-addictive activity to create functional neural side-roads (maybe not as large) that create the same activity/pleasure feedback cycle?

Isn't a person driven by model train building (as an example) still using the same activity/pleasure/reward circuits in the brain? I'm not saying the circuits are invoked the same way. But doesn't the feeling of pleasure and accomplishment invoke the same reward cycle, and form a self-affirming "habit" that gives pleasure? And on repetition of that activity, creating the long-term neural connections to better reward further activities within the scope of their interest?

Understood on disinhibiting factors. Inhibitions come from our society and upbringing and are easily discarded when needed. The model train builder wears railroad clothing and a "choo choo" hat, for instance, clothing that would make him or her the object of ridicule in most public situations.

Yes, I agree with (almost) all the above! And in addition to the brain circuitry that is involved in seeking and engaging in pleasurable activities, which is certainly involved in some activities, the (separate) motivation that is brought into play by the basic human need for problem-solving and finding meaning and satisfaction are involved in these non-drug activities.

Not sure we are talking about the same thing about "inhibition." What I was referring to was the acquisition and maintenance of alcohol dependence (and, especially, relapse) as being greatly facilitated by the fact that we quickly lose our capacity to make good decisions about how much to drink (i.e., to inhibit the impulse to drink MORE) by the very action OF the alcohol ON our frontal lobes.

So: model train building! Yes! My father did that... however, it didn't help him with his addiction, I'm sorry to say... The addiction won, and it killed him (he killed himself). But his situation was a very, very bad one.

wip