af Sunday Sept 2

[CanToo]

af Sunday Sept 2

:clapping2:Just a quick jump in to say

Congratulations Mick

[shueaddict]

af Sunday Sept 2

Ouch, Kas, I feel the sting of your words and I know I am supposed to.

Truth hurts.

I have been stewing on your words for the past few hours. It will do me good.

[porqoui]

af Sunday Sept 2

Morning all Congrats on 60 Mick, sorry I missed it my internet was down. Boy, what happened. Everyone's "Deciding" to drink again? I agree with Kaslo. My son always says to me It's a choice. You can decide not to drink. It's hard to explain to him that it's much, much more than that. I know for me when I slipped (19) days ago it wasn't a decision. Or maybe it was. I decided I didn't care anymore. About me, the kids, living, working on this AF life. I didn't know where I was heading but I knew I didn't care anymore. Thank God I ran out of AL and had the courage to log back on. All of you are in my thoughts every day. I'm so glad everyone keeps checking in and checking up on each other. Have a great AF Sunday. PQ

[Mick]

af Sunday Sept 2

out early in the morning but hopefully be able to start thread off..just wanted to say,I think Kas is right in a sense, however I dont see it as anyones role to give out arse kickings and bollockings Everyone of us is a grown up and a volunteer too..and we all decided to quit al..thats what this is about..yes people will slip and pick themselves up again..and the point is to come on here and be honest not lie or any of that crap Ihave read all the posts of the people who have had a drink..each and everyone say they feel shit, disappointed guilty the whole works..as long as that is genuine I dont mind helping anyone..but when it becomes a p... take, then time to call it a draw and ask yourself if you really want to give up..you are the one who has to make the choice..no-one else.
Mick

[Lavande]

af Sunday Sept 2

I have one minute until my family arrives......

Kas knows that i am in complete agreement with her!
I am also 58 years old, have been around the corner a few times too.
Things are NEVER going to get better until each & every individual decides to permanetly kick AL's ass to the curb! This is an abstinence thread & I have heard that repeated over & over here. We are commited to waking up each & every day & deciding to not drink - end of story.

Even in my somewhat snarky mood I am going to wish everyone here a wonderful AF day.
Don't choose to poison yourselves & expect to be OK

[Turnagain]

af Sunday Sept 2

whew! Just taking it all in here in this little cyber corner of the tubes which is a bit less....um...serene...than usual?

There are certainly differences in how people deal with issues - theirs or others - and while we may not agree with the other's methods...it is great to see respect and respectful disagreement.

So...with that being said...here's my contribution for what it's worth:

Addiction is powerful and the mechanics are not yet fully understood. What is known is that all of us are here because addiction has resulted in serious problems in our lives and diminished the quality of our daily life and our health.

What I personally know is that AMBIVALENCE about abstinence was destructive for me. I spent YEARS of misery desperately clinging to the idea that somehow I could bring my drinking under control. Once I completely accepted that this was no longer an option, my life began again. No need to white knuckle...no need to worry about relapse. I KNOW what will happen if I were to drink again. Sure I could have one or two. I would want more, though. And it wouldn't be long before the brain chemistry that I worked so hard to repair rushed back into the loop of addiction. Dopamine be damned.

So....I no longer drink. No matter what. And, after a lot of work and a lot of support....I don't need to drink and can truly say.....I don't WANT to.

I wish I could wave a wand and ping everyone (who needs it) on the head to share this incredible freedom.

Since I don't have that power, the best I can do is offer support, encouragement and FACTS to those who are struggling.

ETHANOL is a TOXIN. Once its use leads to abuse, it inevitably leads to addiction. Alcohol damages every cell in our bodies. It damages the heart, the liver, the kidneys, the pancreas, the intestines, the stomach, the skin....and most of all....the brain...that marvelous command center that controls our ability to think, feel and function.

You don't have to go through this crap any more. My HOPE is that everyone who is addicted will come to embrace the REAL NORMAL of daily living. Normal as in the state of having a brain that doesn't demand any amount of chemical alteration. There's no secret or mystery about finding NORMAL. It begins when we end our relationship - ONCE and for ALL - to alcohol and any other addictive substance that runs- and ruins - our lives.

[ThreeDogNight]

af Sunday Sept 2

I won't be posting here any longer. God knows, I have tried and have failed, and I feel so bad. But I would never lash out at somebody because s/he couldn't do what we all want to do. And I know that I am a good person, giving of myself in so many ways. Not sure you who criticize could do so.

[ThreeDogNight]

af Sunday Sept 2

Also wanted to say to Mick that yes, we who fall try to come here and admit it--not easy. I've done it before, but I won't do it again. You, Mick, are a wonderful person, and I have truly benefited from your kind words of support every morning,

[YoungAtHeart]

af Sunday Sept 2

Well, personally, I respond much better to support, and if confrontation is needed, I prefer a gentle approach. I've been called on the carpet about a variety of things, including drinking, and when it has been done with love, I have listened.

In AA, you're supposed to speak from your own experience and not judge (although some do). I believe that is the best approach here, as well.

I pray that I will never forget what I have learned about this cunning and baffling addiction, but if I do, I hope I will receive support to get back on the AF Train. Ass-whuppings never worked for me as a kid, and they don't work for me now.

Kaslo, I would like to believe that you are coming from a place of caring and concern, and not judgment, but I did feel your post was a tad harsh. I hope that TDN reconsiders her decision to stop posting here. We all need each other.

JMHO.

Hugs, :l
YahYah

[Turnagain]

af Sunday Sept 2

TDN - I sure hope you will reconsider and continue to post here. I don't think anyone suggested that anyone leave this thread because they drank again. Obviously some folks have a different approach to dealing with those who fall off the abstinence wagon. There was a bit of 'tough love' talk, but I didn't see any character criticism of anyone. Nonetheless, I am sorry that you feel bad.

We have all tried and failed at some point in breaking free of this addiction. The key is to keep trying until you succeed. So....make the honest assessment of what happened and how you can avoid repeating it, accept or ignore the lumps, accept or ignore the encouragement, and move forward. I sincerely hope you'll do that here.

[Kaslo]

af Sunday Sept 2

Hey all. I read my post again, and I see I was referring to how I felt peer pressure was effective and necessary for me at the time, in my first few months or so. The harshest thing I said was that "deciding" to drink was not a decision it was delusion. And I am sticking with that. I see a lot of folks on here who actually have made it out, and they have one thing in common. They faced their demons, learned a few things, were honest with them selves and worked hard to quit. Here I see TDN blaming her falling on her shoes, and saying she was "tipsy". Sorry, thats dishonest. Blaming the sherrif for your DUI, thats dishonest. Living in a dream world and not figuring out WHY you drink is dishonest. When TDN fell off the wagon, if some of you remember I was very understanding, and kind. I saw real pain in her postings. Here I just see her hoping her hub doesnt notice. As for Det and Shue, I wonder what it is that makes them still go there, to drinking, because they seem SO STRONG most of the time.

What I am trying to say is its not my judgement, I am just trying to make it clear you need to look inside yourself and fix what ever it is that makes you lose your way. There has to be a reason or more than one. Other people in our lives possibly? The attitude we have of not wanting to lose something we once thought was golden, an alcohol rush.... when we know for sure thats gone.

I am sorry Mick, if you think I should just be little miss sunshine all the time, and everyone should be terrific but lives are at stake, health is getting wrecked, people can be killed or maimed. Its not a picnic.

Quitting for good IS possible. If I can do it y'all can as well. Please. I may sound like a total pain in the ass, but I know I am saying the right thing.

So now its down to the pub for dinner, yep, a pub. I am not drinking anything, it happens to be the only restaurant in town, here in Kasloland.

Please, if you are thinking of drinking because some of the people on here have weakened please dont give in, and think its ok. Its not ok, and we ALL know that.

Unapologetically yours,

kas

[LillyE]

af Sunday Sept 2

*** I wrote the below before I read Kas's words and all the follow-up responses. My thoughts on that discussion to come, because it's really made me think, but I wanted to post my initial response unaffected by that first *****

(((((((Oh Shue))))))) Please don't waste too much time in beating yourself up. Use it as a lesson, a powerful reminder, and move on. I only made that comment about IF you're sure you want to be entirely AF as I realized for all I knew you were having other thoughts. But I'm glad it sounds like it's reinforced your motivation. Use it as a powerful motivator. Really think and feel how it's affected you compared to how you were feeling before. And blacking out on a bottle of wine is scary, serious stuff. I've done it myself, so I know. But it does really say that neither of us should be drinking.

The exact same goes for you TDN …. Don't waste too much time wallowing in the misery except to use it as a learning experience, tool and motivator. If you get a chance, write down how it felt, why you did it, what you've learnt. I have found it can really help keep me strong to go back and read things I wrote when I was feeling miserable post Al the next time I feel tempted.

And your post, TDN, made me think about something… You said maybe you drank because summer was coming to a close… funny you said that, as just earlier in the day a thought flashed through my head about how much harder it's going to be to resist drinking when summer comes. It's been winter here, heading into spring, but summer in Sydney is all about being outside and a lot of that revolves around boozing in the warm sunny days leading up to and following the holidays. You know, BBQs, picnics, drinks on people's decks, seafood lunches by the water, you get the picture… You talking about the END of summer being a trigger to drink made me think, let's face it, when we want to drink we can use ANYTHING as an excuse! The last time I was in a bar the "warming" pot of mulled wine on the counter was tempting. It reminds me of a realization I had re smoking. When I was trying to quit there was always a reason I couldn't… some birthday coming up, a wedding, a stressful experience etc. Now that I don't smoke (almost a year and a half now!) there never seems like ANY reason to smoke, ever. I realized this after being in a situation that would have once ticked pretty much ALL of my smoking triggers at once and having no desire to smoke. If we can get to the place where we just don't drink NONE of these things will matter. But by god that's a hard place to get to. I'm not there either and I fear slipping/relapsing too. I struggle with the tempting thoughts a lot still. So I feel for you both big time.

But, like I said to Det, by coming here and sharing honestly you help yourselves and you help us too. Lots of love to all of you as you get back on track. ((((((((Shue, TDN, Satz, Det))))))))))

[LillyE]

af Sunday Sept 2

Wow, this thread has actually been amazing for me to read today, as just last night I was thinking that I fear complacency may be seeping in and I need to find ways to give myself a boot in the arse to stay committed. This thread may have been it.

Firstly, I want to say that I completely respect and appreciate Kas and Lav's 'tough love' approach. I don't think they are being cruel and judgmental. I think they have learned a lot the hard way and done the hard yards of recovery and want to see people get better and that they honestly believe the stakes are too high to molly coddle. If you were a recovered heroin addict who had nearly died from your addiction you probably wouldn't have much tolerance for talk of "Well, I only shot up just a little bit because I was on holiday/it was my coworkers last day of work/the sun was out etc". Try and see it through their eyes, ok?

I know if it were me on the receiving end it would sting - a LOT - and I am a pretty sensitive person whose feelings get hurt easily. Yet, I hope I wouldn't slink away and I really, really, really hope you won't ultimately either TDN. We are ALL still here for you. Do not take this as a personal judgement on you. I know it hurts but please try and see it for what it is - a caring and well-intentioned kick in the arse from people who've been where you are, broken free, and want to see/help you do the same.

Having said that, I myself am way too close to where you all are to be so tough-minded about it - and it's not really my style anyway. But I hope if I ever were to come here having slipped I'd get BOTH loving support and some tough love and be able to take both on board, because I'd really need both, honestly.

One of the things that really disturbed me reading that Moderation thread that got all out of hand was one poster talking about how she'd had alcoholic liver disease, had two physicians tell her no alcohol at all, but found a third who said she could drink "in moderation" and then managed to do so long enough to have her liver results come back clear. And the moderators were holding this up as proof that moderation works. I'm sorry, but I read all that and thought that all those people were colluding in a delusion that was clearly potentially life-threatening, if you know anything at ALL about alcoholism and liver disease, and that it was just downright selfish and irresponsible of people who should know better. IMHO, what she really needed was exactly the sort of tough love Kas just dished out, not pats on the back about how great her modding was going.

Am I making any sense?

I read something recently about how drinking is always a choice in so much as usually it's just a choice to go "fuck it - screw this sobriety stuff - I'm going to drink again". I would be lying if I didn't say I could see myself making that choice one day and I have to be honest that reading about people drinking here is a bit triggering - but I'd still hate for you all to not be able to come here and be honest about what's happened and where you're at. I HOPE that I won't drink, but I know I still have a lot of work to do not to. Threads like these help me in that regard. If it were all just constant talk of people drinking and 'oh you slipped that's fine and dandy just start over" it would not help me. That's what I was finding the Nest like and it's why I left and came over here.

I hope there is room enough here for both loving support, acceptance, and a bit of arse-kicking when needed. PLEASE don't disappear Shue or TDN or anyone else - you'd only be hurting yourself. Stay close.

Lilly xoxox

[LillyE]

af Sunday Sept 2

And in light of this conversation:

Alternative Addiction Recovery Course -Total Abstinence and the Zero Tolerance Policy

[TheSunFlower]

af Sunday Sept 2

Young I think you said it best...."people should speak from their experience". Not in "you need to do this".....but instead...."this is what I needed to do or learn".

I see this as being a monthly abstinence thread....which means people are working very hard to get through 30 days. Not all will. And I do believe there is another thread for long term abstinence.

Because someone feels strong in their sobriety today....and has a few years....really doesn't give them the right to tear anyone down. I've seen people relapse after 20 years....to think you or anyone is bullet proof is nonsense.

Words sting when a person is coming back from failing. Some of the words posted here could cause someone to give up trying. I personally, would never want to be a part of that.....I would indirectly influenced their decision.....and who knows what that could cause in the big picture. One big ugly butterfly effect.

I doubt that there is a person here who has not committed to themselves not to drink.....and by witching hour gave in.

I know I will need to sleep on whether I want to continue on here. If the bashing is going to be a preferred method.....I can say no.