AF Daily - Wednesday Sep 5th

[Lavande]

AF Daily - Wednesday Sep 5th

PQ,
I don't think I ever used Drink Tracker primarily because I decided to stop drinking!!!! What was there to count?
I just took a look at it though - looks like once you are on the Drinker Tracker page you have to click on the the login here link & re-enter your login info again.

YahYah, now you know why there are doctors double billing ins companies.....esp Medicare
My DIL was just talking about being able to do this in the future - I told her GOOD LUCK!
Try to not work yourself into a frenzy right before your vacation

Greetings to one & all
Extremely dark & damp in my neck of the woods today - oh well.

[Kaslo]

AF Daily - Wednesday Sep 5th

Hi folkies. First I want to say hi to Molly, you were kind to me when I first came on here, so thanks for that.

I think it was LillyE who asked about progression of toxic biochemistry after quitting drinking.

I am primarily a tox specialist for heavy metals and oxides and not for human health response to AL. I am not really qualified to do much more that discuss generally what I have read, same as anyone else on here. I did get into the literature heavily when I first quit because i was working on some liver tox issues, and had access to a ton of material. But its not the main part of my practice.

So for what its worth, (and some may interject with their own experience or knowledge, please do, i am not the only person on here with a bio background).... Most people, especially the young, recover soon but the persistence of elevated enzymes long after cessation of drinking can occur. You can still have elevated triglycerides, and low levels of Vitamin C, riboflavin, zinc, B6, Vit A can persist in the recovering alcholic for months to years, depending on the length of time of exposure to alcohol, persons age, general health, etc. So that covers nutritional chemistry, aka blood chemistry. I THINK but I am not sure that alkaline phoshatase, alanine transaminase, aspartate transminase and gamma glutamyl transpeptidase are all the indicators of injury, appear elevated for some time following cessation. Speaking personally my friend, who died of the disease had elevated enzymes from the point it was discovered she was a chronic case with threshold level injury to her liver, right up to the day she died. She was a 70 year old heavy drinker though. Quitting didnt help her, unfortunately she had irreversable injury to her liver. So keep in mind that the younger you knock off the sauce the better chance your system has to recover. And recover it does. Unlike many organs, the liver, bless its pointy purple little head, can recover.

Alteration in seritonin inhibition and deinhibition is not completely understood, but that is the gut chemistry connection I talked about. I.e. recovering alcohol dependant people (I hate the word alcoholic) MAY have persistent depression, and its not easy to treat. There are folks on here who have had success with certain drugs, and I urge anyone to see not just one but a few different AL savy physicians to discuss treatment for depression if youve quit and you still find you have the blues. Depression and anger flashes are two common long term persistant conditions.

I had the anger flashes and not the depression. its been 18 months for me, and I STILL have the odd anger flash. Not common and usually a stern talk with myself brings me around.

Disconcerting though, because you would think I would be ok. I am 58. I KNEW I had elevated enzymes when I quit. I am not sure there is a connection between the enzyme elevation and the psychological / behavioural response. YahYah may be able to comment on that.

One thing I was alarmed and somewhat discouraged by was that periods of a year or more are required to heal your system, the persistance of stellate cells in the liver for example... But ONE IMPORTANT thing is that having longer and longer periods of time with no alcohol is very different from continuous daily exposure. You dont go back to square one physiologically if you fall of the wagon. I am talking about chronic effects, not acute effects, though. Acute effects from a binge when you are in recovery CAN BE VERY SERIOUS.

Thats the topic of another post.

Recovery with no alcohol heals the bile duct blockage, scar tissue formation, fatty liver disease, and inflamation. I am not sure about damage to the heart, esophagus, gall bladder, but most of the organic damage does progress doggedly, steadily as you recover and get some AF time in. So if you are reading this (still) and clutching yourself, dont worry, its working. You are getting better. There are WAY more knowlegeable people than me here who can comment on dietary regimen during recovery; ... but need I say lots of water, reduced fats, low dairy, low simple sugars, (i.e. get your sugar from fruit if you can)...lots of cruciferous veggies, leafy greens, nuts garlic. Some firmly believe wheat and anythin with gluten in it is a bad thing. Having said that, I think the objective of quitting AL is number one, and if you scarf down a box of Tim Horton donuts a DAY for a week, well thats the price you gotta pay. You can lose the fat later, as Lav has done.

I would say get timed blood tests, and a knowlegeable health professional, and be aware there are a few out there who think booze is ok and they are misinformed. Its not ok, for those of us who used it to the point of developing addictive behaviour, and we ALL know that.

I hope this helps and doesnt hurt.

k

[Kaslo]

AF Daily - Wednesday Sep 5th

YahYah, I feel your pain. I too rely on the payments from very large companies, and I just hate when they "forget" my invoices.

I guess that is what credit cards are for!

Kas

[FreeFly]

AF Daily - Wednesday Sep 5th

YoungAtHeart;1373948 wrote: Freefly, good to see you; that's the reason they say "One day at a time" in AA. It is so overwhelming to thing of not drinking forever, especially in the initial days. It is so much easier to just think about not drinking for the coming day. Eventually, our minds adjust. I'm glad that most of you is on board; that will be enough, if you are careful.

Thanks YahYah - yes, taking it very steady this time ODAT and attempting an even keel emotionally, not thinking I've got it licked etc. Can't wait til my mind adjusts too

Kaslo - thanks for taking the time to write out very imformative post.

[Determinator]

AF Daily - Wednesday Sep 5th

Kas to answer on how we deal with weight/eating: my wife and I are now blissfully at or near our ideal weights and have been for going on 2 years now thanks to our PALEO dietary lifestyle. no counting calories, no portion control to speak of, just nice and simple and our results speak for themselves. I really believe a low-fat diet is a mistake and caution everyone to do their own research accordingly.

to your health xxxx

[Turnagain]

AF Daily - Wednesday Sep 5th

Well...I had planned to come here this morning and post a picture of my newest footwear purchase...but we had a HUGE wind storm last night with gusts up to 130 mph so the footwear won't be getting a solo shot. It is posing...ready for action:




This tree top is about 30 feet long. It SNAPPED off a bit before midnight just after the power went out. It sounded like an explosion when it hurled into our lower deck. A hot tub is under those branches.



So that's my bit of drama. Fortunately, the tree missile didn't hurt anyone...it didn't take out our roof and didn't hurl into the neighbor's house. As for the hot tub that's buried under the branches well....we won't know how it did until we round up a chain saw. And talk about timing...next week, we will be extending the upper deck. So the handrails were already off. They would've been smashed to toothpicks. I have much to be grateful for! My resident squirrels are gleefully scurrying about grabbing all the sweet little pinecones for their winter stash.

Interesting convo today about some of the longer term issues regarding recovery. I don't think I would be here today solid in my sobriety had I not aggressively sought out healing. This is an ongoing process for me. I began with taking supplements to replace the vitamins, minerals and amino acids that alcohol had systematically eliminated in my system. I got serious about eating healthy. Like Det, I feel so much better following a paleo-type lifestyle. I exercise regularly - re-gearing the system to get its dopamine needs the natural way....and last but not least....I spend time learning as much as I can. This knowledge not only expedites the healing process - it reinforces my decision and need to remain alcohol free for the rest of my life.

Right now, I'm working on correcting the hypoglycemia issues in my life. Most of us who have been addicted to alcohol have difficulty with our blood sugar regulation. Here are a couple of interesting links that delve into the link between alcohol and hypoglycemia:

Hypoglycemia

Hypoglycemic Health Association of Australia - Why Alcoholics Drink?

I am grateful to be alive today. Alcohol and tree-missile free!

[Lavande]

AF Daily - Wednesday Sep 5th

Wow Turn - sure glad you are OK!!!!!
Did you have any warning before that storm hit?
Nice boots btw

Kas & anyone who wants to know-
From a medical standpoint liver disease is progressive. The liver does have the amazing ability to heal itself if a problem is identified early on & the offender (AL) is removed.
Disease starts with inflammation where the liver may or may not be tender & the enzymes will be elevated somewhat. Next in the progression is fibrosis/development of scar tissue. There is still time atthis ppoint to reverse the damage if treated. Without treatment you will develop cirrhosis which will lead to liver failure or even cancer
Bottom line is - stop drinking asap!

Det, if a normal weight is a person's only concern then I see where the paleo diet would work.
But nothing is ever going to convince me to try that eating style. Firstly, I just don't tolerate a lot of meat or fish & then there's the issue of high cholesterol levels & a strong family history of cardiovascular & peripheral vascular disease. I need the fiber from whole grains to keep my arteries clear or suffer the consequences my Dad & older brothers have suffered, ugh!

I wish the humidity wasn't 1000% outside - it just keeps driving me back inside the house & the AC :H

[Lavande]

AF Daily - Wednesday Sep 5th

Hey Molly -
You are here with us now

[ChefRobaire]

AF Daily - Wednesday Sep 5th

Kuya, I speak from personal and professional experience when it comes to losing or maintaining weight. The bottom line is calories in versus calories out. If your calorie intake is more than you exert in any given day, then you gain weight, and visa versus. I have tried every trick in the book nutritionally and the magic bullet is diet and exercise, calories in ~ calories out..period. I have worked with dietitians and currently do, and that has been their mantra forever. Hope this helps.
Mick, you finally got my two cents

[porqoui]

AF Daily - Wednesday Sep 5th

Lavande;1374051 wrote: PQ,
I don't think I ever used Drink Tracker primarily because I decided to stop drinking!!!! What was there to count? ( :H :H :H That's good Lav!)

I just took a look at it though - looks like once you are on the Drinker Tracker page you have to click on the the login here link & re-enter your login info again.

Yup, I got to the login and that's where it's fighting back! I'll work on it.

Wow Turn glad everyone's safe. Sounds about the same size as the one that snapped and landed on our garage in the middle of the night. Thought we were having an earthquake.

I JUST HAVE TO BRAG Heard from my lawyer who was very impressed with my documentation.......to the extent we're skipping the Trial and going straight to court!! Figure I just saved about $2500. I've been patting myself on the back since.

Time for supper and after all the chitchat not sure what I'm having. :H Have a good one. PPQ

[LillyE]

AF Daily - Wednesday Sep 5th

Hi kids,

Today's Spiritual River article seemed pertinent to our recent discussions:

Holistic Health and the Direction of Personal Growth in Addiction Recovery

Kuya, it sounds like you have some experience with amino acid supplements. I have GABA and Tyrosine in my fridge but haven't been taking them. I think after I bought them I realized you weren't supposed to combine with ADs. I'm now almost all weaned off the AD I was taking (Lexapro) so want to start exploring this but every time I google it I get overwhelmed by all the info. Any thoughts? Do you take either of these?

Free, I'll never hassle you, or anyone, to give up smoking, 'cause that never worked for me, but if you ever do, and need a support champion, I'm here. It was SOOOO hard for me and took me SOOOO long but I'm so, so, so glad now I did.

Re weight loss: I have lost almost 4 kilos Admittedly, I've been dieting and exercising too but the booze has to have been a huge factor. Only 2 more to go until I reach my goal weight!!!

I haven't felt more hungry for not drinking really - if anything the healthy kick I've been on as a result is making me crave healthier food - but I do think if this is an issue for you early on, cut yourself some slack, you can lose the weight later. That's what I told myself with quitting smoking anyway. Quitting is more important than the odd doughnut or ten, IMHO, at least at the start.

YahYah, I didn't know you were a clin psych - how interesting. I did a degree in psych and that was my original career goal but the stats did me in and I'd really always wanted to write. However, I have an enduring interest in all things psych-related and see a psychologist regularly myself. (Although I think I need someone who's more knowledgeable about alcohol addiction - she kept encouraging me to mod initially, which wasn't helpful - but that's another story and she's very good in other ways.) If it makes you feel better, I am currently owed 7 THOUSAND DOLLARS I can't seem to prise out of clients! Where are you going for your holiday?

Kas, that was immensely interesting and informative and also gives me enough to go forth and research further. Thank you. This bit for one intrigues me and I want to know more. I'm sure a few of us will.

>>But ONE IMPORTANT thing is that having longer and longer periods of time with no alcohol is very different from continuous daily exposure. You dont go back to square one physiologically if you fall of the wagon. I am talking about chronic effects, not acute effects, though. Acute effects from a binge when you are in recovery CAN BE VERY SERIOUS.>>.

TURN, the boots, :H Lovely.

I'm glad you're all ok from that storm! I'm also jealous of your hot tub! Mmm... I love hot tubs. Especially surrounded by forest like that - heavenly.

I'm definitely trying to improve my health in all ways - healthier eating, exercise, supplements etc - so am VERY interested in everything pertaining to holistic health and healing so keep the discussion coming peeps.

Right, got sucked into reading all your interesting posts, curse you people. Too much work to do though!

[LillyE]

AF Daily - Wednesday Sep 5th

Also, TDN, if you are still reading along come baaaaaaaacccccckkkkkkkkk. We miss you.

[ChefRobaire]

AF Daily - Wednesday Sep 5th

Kas...good stuff...thanks for sharing..

[kuya]

AF Daily - Wednesday Sep 5th

ChefRobaire;1374242 wrote: Kuya, I speak from personal and professional experience when it comes to losing or maintaining weight. The bottom line is calories in versus calories out. If your calorie intake is more than you exert in any given day, then you gain weight, and visa versus. I have tried every trick in the book nutritionally and the magic bullet is diet and exercise, calories in ~ calories out..period. I have worked with dietitians and currently do, and that has been their mantra forever. Hope this helps.
Mick, you finally got my two cents

I think you missed the point I was trying to make, so I must have made it badly. Simply put drinkers drink rather than eat (particularly women I believe) and then when they quit drinking we still don't eat enough or good enough.

My post was not about dieting or losing weight, in fact it was to HIGHLIGHT the obsession with body image as a ROOT cause of alcohol abuse.

I am more than aware of calories in /calories out after 55 years on this planet populated by the image obsessed. My concern is that even here, on a site populated by people who recognize they are in the clutches of a life threatening disease .... There are STILL concerns over weight gain when good, maybe even overheating will help dampen their alcohol craving.

KY

[Determinator]

AF Daily - Wednesday Sep 5th

Lav, weight regulation is only a side benefit of the paleo eating lifestyle. my blood lipid profile (and my wifes) both dramatically improved after eating a higher fat, lower carb way. conclusive studies which I have posted in the PALEO section show that the lipid theory of eating fat causing blood cholesterol to raise is indeed a failed hypothesis. 45% of all fatal heart attack victims have low to healthy blood cholesterol. hmmmmmm!?

even mainstream MD's like Andrew Weil are trying to spread the message that fat is not making people fat or sick in any way. it's a false demonization that has to stop for our nation to get well.

just try paleo for 30 days and if your HDL doesn't raise, your LDL doesn't lower and overall triglicerides don't lower I'll eat my shorts on youtube. and yes, as a side benefit you'll lose weight. your body won't lie.